What would Mother Teresa say? (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 8:50:43 AM)

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

I have a feeling that Mother Teresa (who IMO deserves to be a Saint asap) would tell the Vatican where to stick it.




DomKen -> RE: What would Mother Theresa say? (4/20/2012 8:55:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

I have a feeling that Mother Theresa (who IMO deserves to be a Saint asap) would tell the Vatican where to stick it.

Teresa? She would have heartily agreed with the Pope. She said abortion was the biggest threat to world peace.

As to sainthood, does a woman who intentionally let people die in agonizing pain deserving of any accolade?




Hillwilliam -> RE: What would Mother Theresa say? (4/20/2012 9:25:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

I have a feeling that Mother Theresa (who IMO deserves to be a Saint asap) would tell the Vatican where to stick it.

Teresa? She would have heartily agreed with the Pope. She said abortion was the biggest threat to world peace.

As to sainthood, does a woman who intentionally let people die in agonizing pain deserving of any accolade?

She saved a lot of the poor. The primary purpose of her ministry was hospice care and caring for the sick, poor, orphaned and hungry.

This is exactly what this American order is being criticized for.




Anaxagoras -> RE: What would Mother Theresa say? (4/20/2012 9:27:08 AM)

Yeah I'm sure she did some exceptional things but I was pretty sickened by her stance on condoms, especially in a place like India before the boom times, with its grinding poverty and immense overpopulation - seems the issue of sexual morality came before any sort of suffering.




LaTigresse -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 9:57:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

I have a feeling that Mother Teresa (who IMO deserves to be a Saint asap) would tell the Vatican where to stick it.


Not being a fan of this particular sadist myself.........then again I am pretty much of the mind that the catholic church is the largest evil entity on the planet so them making her a saint would actually make sense.

RE: the article.........I am not sure why anyone would be surprised. Please see my brief note regarding my feelings on the catholic church.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 10:06:14 AM)

Teresa didn't so much love the poor as she loved poverty.
The late, great Christopher Hitchens was asked to be the devil's advocate by the Church when Teresa was being considered for beatification.  Here is an article about it:

FORT WORTH - Christopher Hitchens is a rare bird these days. Not just because he's a British-born journalist who writes about
American politics - as well as a contentious, left-wing contrarian
who supports the war in Iraq.
Mr. Hitchens has also played "devil's advocate" - against Mother
Teresa. This would seem an outsized case of windmill-tilting and
nose-thumbing. While she was alive, the Nobel Prize-winning nun
often topped international polls as the most admired person on the
planet. Last month, she was beatified by the Catholic Church - the
second major step toward sainthood, after being found "venerable."
Yet Mr. Hitchens testified against her - at the request of the
church.
A devil's advocate is not the Keanu Reeves character in an Al
Pacino movie. When an individual is being considered by the church
for sainthood, a "postulator" is appointed to make the case for
that candidate. The devil's advocate, on the other hand, is the
person who presents the evidence against sainthood. He's called
that because, obviously, in trying to keep candidates out of the
ranks of the saintly, he's like a corporate recruiter for the
sinful side.
But still, no demons, no pitchforks, no special effects. The
advocatus diaboli, as he's called in Latin, is merely the opposing
counsel, a prosecuting attorney with a flashy title. Officially,
he's even known as the "Promoter of the Faith." It was an honorable
position: Before he became Pope Benedict XIV (1740-58), Prospero
Lamartini served in the post for 20 years.
It was an honorable position: The church did away with it 20 years
ago. Nonetheless, Mr. Hitchens was requested by the Vatican to
bring evidence against Mother Teresa. That's as close as ordinary
mortals get these days to donning the devil's robes in an
ecclesiastical court.
Mr. Hitchens was an obvious choice to raise hell. His 1995 book,
The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice,
aggressively attacked the famous nun's reputation as a selfless
servant of the poor. He questioned her relationships with some
unsavory global characters and the efficacy and purpose of her
missionary work in Calcutta, India. (The iconoclastic Vanity Fair
columnist was in Fort Worth last week working on a documentary
about Texas that he's doing for Britain's Channel 4. The same TV
company produced Hell's Angel, a documentary about Mother Teresa
that he co-wrote.)
In his book and documentary, Mr. Hitchens pointed out that Mother
Teresa associated with (and applauded) the Duvalier clan, the
dictators of Haiti. She accepted a donation of more than $1 million
from Charles Keating Jr., the convicted savings-and-loan fraud.
Paul Turley, the Los Angeles deputy district attorney in that case,
sent her a letter stating that the money she received was not Mr.
Keating's to give, that it was stolen from hundreds of small
investors. Mother Teresa never returned it.
On a broader level, Mr. Hitchens argued that Catholics and
non-Catholics all over the world gave money to help Mother Teresa
with her efforts among the poor and sick of Calcutta. But, he
maintained, she and her order, the Missionaries of Charity, have
not so much provided physical or medical aid as they have worked to
convert the poor. The Lancet, the prestigious British medical
journal, called the care dispensed at her Calcutta clinic
"haphazard."
"Her clinic is just as threadbare as when she began," Mr. Hitchens
said in Fort Worth. "Yet she said with pride that she's built more
than 500 convents in 125 countries."
Mother Teresa was always candid that her goal was ministering to
what she saw as the poor's spiritual needs and not their medical or
economic ones. "We are not social workers," she once said. What was
needed, she said, was more prayer, more faith. As for her
association with what Mr. Hitchens termed "the corrupt and wordly
rich," the Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, the postulator in her case, has
pointed out that Jesus himself sat down with Roman tax collectors. Many in the Catholic press have called Mr. Hitchens' charges
"slurs" and even "bizarre." Bishop Salvadore Lobo of Baruipur,
India, labeled Hell's Angel a "very distorted" depiction of the
beloved nun and her work.
The objections have often focused on Mr. Hitchens' vitriolic
atheism. He's hardly impartial to religion: "I'm hostile to it," he
told Free Inquiry magazine in 1996. "I think it is a positively bad
idea, not just a false one. And I mean not just organized religion,
but religious belief itself."
But, Mr. Hitchens noted, no one has disproved his assertions about
the Duvaliers, the Keating money or Mother Teresa's consistently
ultra-conservative views. (She opposed the reforms of Vatican II,
for example, and supported a proposed ban on divorce in Ireland
while supporting Princess Diana's own divorce.)
Still, he said, when it came to handling her beatification, Father
Kolodiejchuk was "a fair-minded guy." Attempts to reach Father
Kolodiejchuk, who was said to be traveling in Calcutta, were
unsuccessful.
Mr. Hitchens was one of several non-Catholics who testified - among
hundreds of witnesses whose testimony filled some 34,200 pages of
what is called the Acts of the Diocesan Inquiry.
When he received his letter a few years ago from the Vatican asking
for input, "I thought, terrific, because I thought I would go to
Rome," Mr. Hitchens recalled. "Possibly even to the Sacred
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is in the old
Inquisition office." Maybe he'd find a few leftover thumbscrews
lying around. Mr. Hitchens said he'd even pay for the trip himself. But it turned out that his appearance was overseen by the Catholic
archdiocese in his adoptive home, Washington, D.C.
No plane trip, no thumbscrews.
"It was just a taxi ride to Catholic University," Mr. Hitchens
grumped. He can see the spire of the campus from his apartment. Under Pope John Paul II, the canonization protocol has been greatly
streamlined. The process was once painstakingly slow, requiring two
verified miracles for beatification and two more for canonization.
When St. Therese of Lisieux was canonized in 1925 - 28 years after
her death - it set a modern speed record. In comparison, Queen
Isabella - the one who bankrolled Christopher Columbus - is still
waiting, 499 years after her death.
The snail's pace was intended to dampen any faddish enthusiasms.
The church would not be buffaloed. Mr. Hitchens likes to quote the
19th-century British historian, Thomas Babington Macaulay, who
observed that one of the great achievements of the church was its
"containment" of fanaticism.
But in a 1983 "apostolic constitution," John Paul II fast-tracked
the canonization process. The four-miracle requirement was cut to
two. The devil's advocate position - created in 1587 - was
abolished.
Since then, John Paul has become the most prolific saint-maker in
history, having canonized 476 people and beatified more than 1,300.
Together, all of his 20th-century predecessors canonized 98. Well before her death in 1997, Mother Teresa was hailed as a
"living saint" and "the saint of the gutters." And now the
Macedonian nun has been beatified faster than anyone in modern
history: It took only five years, three months.
That's partly because Archbishop Henry D'Souza of Calcutta
petitioned for a waiver of the five-year "cooling off" period that
the church had imposed before a person could be considered for
beatification. The pope agreed. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the
Vatican's doctrinal overseer, said after Mother Teresa's death, "I
am not privy to the innermost thoughts of the Holy Father, but I
think he wants it [her canonization] speeded up." The resulting inquiry wasn't the most august process, Mr. Hitchens
said. He likened it to "a seminar hearing in a rundown college." He
met with a three-member tribunal in a paneled room at Catholic
University - one of 14 such tribunals worldwide in Mother Teresa's
case. The journalist began by thanking the committee for the chance to
present his objections. "'As you know,'" he recalled saying, "'I am not a believer, not a
member of the faith, and so whom you make a saint is none of my
concern. It's very decent of you to ask me into your internal
affairs. But to the extent that the word sainthood or beatification
has a secular meaning regarding an exemplary life, an exemplary
person, I would like to enter a dissent.'" They accepted a copy of his Mother Teresa book as evidence, and
then proceeded through 263 questions - "a standard questionnaire
from Rome that everyone has to fill in," Mr. Hitchens said. "There
is no deviation. I had to simply check 'yes' or 'no' or 'no
comment.'" The famously combative journalist was disappointed once again.
There was no debate, no probing questions, "no dialectical
opposition," he said. Instead, when the questionnaire was done, he
was politely told the record of his testimony would be processed
quickly. Father Kolodiejchuk submitted all of the testimony to the
Congregation for the Causes of the Saints (the Vatican office that
handles canonization). The cardinals and bishops voted. The pope
concurred. Mother Teresa can now officially be called "Blessed." Before she can be called "Saint," another verified miracle is
needed. Not surprisingly, Mr. Hitchens dismisses the validity of
the first, the disappearance of an abdominal cyst from a Hindu
mother. But given the enormous popularity of Mother Teresa and given the
reverence in which she's held both in the church and out, the only
question would seem to be whether John Paul II will live to see her
canonized. As for the dissenting Mr. Hitchens, he believes "I was restrained
by the rules from making my best case." But he consoles himself with this thought: "I did represent the
devil pro bono."




DomKen -> RE: What would Mother Theresa say? (4/20/2012 10:08:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

I have a feeling that Mother Theresa (who IMO deserves to be a Saint asap) would tell the Vatican where to stick it.

Teresa? She would have heartily agreed with the Pope. She said abortion was the biggest threat to world peace.

As to sainthood, does a woman who intentionally let people die in agonizing pain deserving of any accolade?

She saved a lot of the poor. The primary purpose of her ministry was hospice care and caring for the sick, poor, orphaned and hungry.

This is exactly what this American order is being criticized for.

She saved very few. Many people died in her House of the Dying that could have been saved by the use of modern medicine that her group had the funds to provide but chose not to.

Calling it a hospice is insulting to real hospices and the people who work very hard to make people about to die as comfortable as possible.

The primary purpose of her "ministry" was raising money from the gullible and guilty to further spread her vile beliefs to other suffering poor people.




thishereboi -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 11:16:37 AM)

yea, I have a feeling you are right.




SadistDave -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 4:18:46 PM)

Mother Teresa was a soulless cunt.

Penn and Teller did a show about her and interviewed Hitchens. Here is part one of their show.

-SD-




tazzygirl -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 4:45:51 PM)

Got something beyond Hitchens to back up your assertion?




Iamsemisweet -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:12:34 PM)

I am surprised that the well researched reasoning by Hitchens, who did not accept MT's sainthood at face value, is not good enough Tazzy.  However, I would suggest you read his book "The Missionary Position" if you want more proof.  In the meantime, here is a shorter article by the man himself.  I have also never heard the fact that she accepted money from Keating, and then never returned it after finding out it was stolen, refuted.  What more do you want?

Mommie Dearest The pope beatifies Mother Teresa, a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud. By Christopher Hitchens|Posted Monday, Oct. 20, 2003, at 4:04 PM ET
[image]http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/archive/2003/10/1_123125_2073765_2076475_2089328_031020_motherteresa.jpg[/image] Mother Teresa: No saint I think it was Macaulay who said that the Roman Catholic Church deserved great credit for, and owed its longevity to, its ability to handle and contain fanaticism. This rather oblique compliment belongs to a more serious age. What is so striking about the "beatification" of the woman who styled herself "Mother" Teresa is the abject surrender, on the part of the church, to the forces of showbiz, superstition, and populism.
It's the sheer tawdriness that strikes the eye first of all. It used to be that a person could not even be nominated for "beatification," the first step to "sainthood," until five years after his or her death. This was to guard against local or popular enthusiasm in the promotion of dubious characters. The pope nominated MT a year after her death in 1997. It also used to be that an apparatus of inquiry was set in train, including the scrutiny of an advocatus diaboli or "devil's advocate," to test any extraordinary claims. The pope has abolished this office and has created more instant saints than all his predecessors combined as far back as the 16th century.

As for the "miracle" that had to be attested, what can one say? Surely any respectable Catholic cringes with shame at the obviousness of the fakery. A Bengali woman named Monica Besra claims that a beam of light emerged from a picture of MT, which she happened to have in her home, and relieved her of a cancerous tumor. Her physician, Dr. Ranjan Mustafi, says that she didn't have a cancerous tumor in the first place and that the tubercular cyst she did have was cured by a course of prescription medicine. Was he interviewed by the Vatican's investigators? No. (As it happens, I myself was interviewed by them but only in the most perfunctory way. The procedure still does demand a show of consultation with doubters, and a show of consultation was what, in this case, it got.)
According to an uncontradicted report in the Italian paper L'Eco di Bergamo, the Vatican's secretary of state sent a letter to senior cardinals in June, asking on behalf of the pope whether they favored making MT a saint right away. The pope's clear intention has been to speed the process up in order to perform the ceremony in his own lifetime. The response was in the negative, according to Father Brian Kolodiejchuk, the Canadian priest who has acted as postulator or advocate for the "canonization." But the damage, to such integrity as the process possesses, has already been done.
During the deliberations over the Second Vatican Council, under the stewardship of Pope John XXIII, MT was to the fore in opposing all suggestions of reform. What was needed, she maintained, was more work and more faith, not doctrinal revision. Her position was ultra-reactionary and fundamentalist even in orthodox Catholic terms. Believers are indeed enjoined to abhor and eschew abortion, but they are not required to affirm that abortion is "the greatest destroyer of peace," as MT fantastically asserted to a dumbfounded audience when receiving the Nobel Peace Prize *. Believers are likewise enjoined to abhor and eschew divorce, but they are not required to insist that a ban on divorce and remarriage be a part of the state constitution, as MT demanded in a referendum in Ireland (which her side narrowly lost) in 1996. Later in that same year, she told Ladies Home Journal that she was pleased by the divorce of her friend Princess Diana, because the marriage had so obviously been an unhappy one …

This returns us to the medieval corruption of the church, which sold indulgences to the rich while preaching hellfire and continence to the poor. MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?
The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for "the poorest of the poor." People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the "Missionaries of Charity," but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhi—that saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocent—was drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda.

One of the curses of India, as of other poor countries, is the quack medicine man, who fleeces the sufferer by promises of miraculous healing. Sunday was a great day for these parasites, who saw their crummy methods endorsed by his holiness and given a more or less free ride in the international press. Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. More than that, we witnessed the elevation and consecration of extreme dogmatism, blinkered faith, and the cult of a mediocre human personality. Many more people are poor and sick because of the life of MT: Even more will be poor and sick if her example is followed. She was a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud, and a church that officially protects those who violate the innocent has given us another clear sign of where it truly stands on moral and ethical questions.
Correction, Oct. 21, 2003: This piece originally claimed that in her Nobel Peace Prize lecture, Mother Teresa called abortion and contraception the greatest threats to world peace. In that speech Mother Teresa did call abortion "the greatest destroyer of peace." But she did not much discuss contraception, except to praise "natural" family planning.(Return to corrected sentence.)




tazzygirl -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:18:25 PM)

quote:

I am surprised that the well researched reasoning by Hitchens, who did not accept MT's sainthood at face value, is not good enough Tazzy.  However, I would suggest you read his book "The Missionary Position" if you want more proof.


I never said I believed she was not what he claimed. I asked for more proof than just one person. And, as a devout atheist, I would prefer more than just his.

Im curious, why would I want more proof from the same person who would clearly have ulterior motives for producing such?

While many may believe my request is religiously motivated, I am neither a catholic nor a believer in "god", nor am I an atheist. I am, however, someone who would like to see more than just one person's spin on this before deciding if the woman should be condemned.




dcnovice -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:18:48 PM)

FR

I don't know a lot about Mother Teresa, but my sense is that she was a "good girl" in terms of the church hierarchy and would have obeyed. I'm also not sure she would have shown the independence of theological thought that seems to have drawn the Vatican's ire.

It's interesting, imho, that this "crackdown" comes at the same time that the (all-male) Catholic bishops are trying to fashion themselves as champions of religious liberty.




mstrj69 -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:27:03 PM)

If you live your life in the right manner, no matter if you are Mother Theresa or one of us here, the church would say you were a good girl in their eyws. What they will allow today is a far cry from what the allowed back in the 1960's.




dcnovice -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:35:46 PM)

quote:

Got something beyond Hitchens to back up your assertion?


I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I'm an inveterate Googler, so I did some looking around. Hitchens does seem to be the main source for Teresa criticism, but I did come across an interesting blog posting: http://humanizzm.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/mother-teresa/

I did not check out his links, so I don't know how helpful they are.




DomKen -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:40:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I am surprised that the well researched reasoning by Hitchens, who did not accept MT's sainthood at face value, is not good enough Tazzy.  However, I would suggest you read his book "The Missionary Position" if you want more proof.


I never said I believed she was not what he claimed. I asked for more proof than just one person. And, as a devout atheist, I would prefer more than just his.

Im curious, why would I want more proof from the same person who would clearly have ulterior motives for producing such?

While many may believe my request is religiously motivated, I am neither a catholic nor a believer in "god", nor am I an atheist. I am, however, someone who would like to see more than just one person's spin on this before deciding if the woman should be condemned.

How about a long well documented book by an Indian from Calcutta?
http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Teresa-The-Final-Verdict/dp/8188248002




dcnovice -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:41:43 PM)

Also interesting: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html




Iamsemisweet -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:50:28 PM)

Because he researched the hell out of the issue, and includes citations and facts.  What he states is not just his unverified opinion, although I am sure his point of view enters into it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I am surprised that the well researched reasoning by Hitchens, who did not accept MT's sainthood at face value, is not good enough Tazzy.  However, I would suggest you read his book "The Missionary Position" if you want more proof.


I never said I believed she was not what he claimed. I asked for more proof than just one person. And, as a devout atheist, I would prefer more than just his.

Im curious, why would I want more proof from the same person who would clearly have ulterior motives for producing such?

While many may believe my request is religiously motivated, I am neither a catholic nor a believer in "god", nor am I an atheist. I am, however, someone who would like to see more than just one person's spin on this before deciding if the woman should be condemned.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 5:55:10 PM)

This was interesting, so thanks for posting it.  What I found most interesting was the description of the religious doubts that MT expressed.  I think I had heard that before, but had forgotten.  If anything, it makes me more sympathetic to her than I was previously, since it shows that she at least questioned her faith, instead of being a mindless follower.  Nevertheless, the hypocrisy in her life is really revolting, and I don't believe she really solved the problems of the people she claimed to be helping. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Also interesting: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html




Winterapple -> RE: What would Mother Teresa say? (4/20/2012 6:37:05 PM)

FR
I think Christopher Hitchins was deadly accurate
in his assessment of Mother Teresa.
She was a media made saint. I believe it was
Malcolm Muggeridge who put her on the map.
She then became the saint that rich scoundrels
like Charles Keating went to pay homage to.
She became a celebrity because there is a
need in the mass human psyche for living
saints on the world stage. To question her
bone fides after she was media ordained as
a angel brought/brings a lot of hysterical yelps
from all over the place.
There are people who dedicate their lives
to helping others. There are genuinely good
people in the world leading selfless lives.
They just don't usually show up on tv or
on magazine covers.
Her attitude towards newborn babies in her
various houses was appalling but
prolifers in general seem to lose interest in
babies after they are actually born.




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