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RE: Bullying... the results - 4/24/2012 11:36:02 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thank you for actually seeing what I was trying to say.... and what DM was trying to twist. Creating an atmosphere among many students is far different than telling a child "stick up for yourself". Too bad DM simply cant see that.


And it's too bad that you can't see that the situation with your son did absolutely nothing to "address the bully's behavior," as so many of you have claimed should be done. All it did was create a larger pool of "anti-bullies" that could stand up for themselves...which is what I've been advocating. The more people you teach to stand their ground, the fewer people the bully can pick on.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/24/2012 11:38:55 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So, if everyone learns some self-defense, *POOF*, no more bullies? That is the most silly, ignorant, and naive thing I've read on this thread so far. You actually believe that if someone knows self-defense they can handle a bully? How about the bully's friends? Does your self-defense teach you how to deal with eight or nine bullies at once? How about four on one odds? What happens when the bully is a good student of martial art's (i.e. the old 'Karate Kid' movie)?


I'm going to let you re-read your own assinine statement for your answer, since you just contradicted yourself throughout that entire ridiculous post.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/24/2012 11:40:23 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How much pain and suffering have you EVER been in? I'm guessing the most you have experienced is a paper cut. Your are entirely oblivious to the reality such a person suffers through. You lack wisdom, kindness, compassion, and even mature thought. You also lack experience. If you actually had any of these....human...qualities, I know you would never speak on such things. I've never met an individual whom had these qualities and STILL behaved as you do. And I've met quite a number of people in life.

But keep posting as you are. You simply undermine your credibility and worth as a person with each post. In light of evidence to this point, I'd have to seriously ask if you actually know and live by the concept of 'SSC' in BDSM?


Oh noes! Someone on the internetz said I have no worth. I feel so cyber-bullied now. Where's the teacher?

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/24/2012 11:43:23 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How much pain and suffering have you EVER been in? I'm guessing the most you have experienced is a paper cut. Your are entirely oblivious to the reality such a person suffers through. You lack wisdom, kindness, compassion, and even mature thought. You also lack experience. If you actually had any of these....human...qualities, I know you would never speak on such things. I've never met an individual whom had these qualities and STILL behaved as you do. And I've met quite a number of people in life.

But keep posting as you are. You simply undermine your credibility and worth as a person with each post. In light of evidence to this point, I'd have to seriously ask if you actually know and live by the concept of 'SSC' in BDSM?

You sound like a professional victim whose forte is being a verbal bully when he doesn't get any sympathy. Back to facts:

Bullies don't pick on just anyone. They engage in a "shopping process" to find their victims. Studies have shown that, "at the beginning of the school year, when children do not know each other well, about 22 percent of children report having a victimaztion experience... but by the end of the school year, only 8 percent of kids wind up being regularly singled out by bullies."

Targets of bullies have identifiable characteristics. They tend to be "pervasively nonassertive" in social situations, seldom making overtures or initiating conversations. Often this results in them having only a small social circle. And when they are bullied, it grows smaller. "No one likes a bully, but no one likes a victim either." A failure or inability to stick up for oneself makes other kids uncomfortable, and the victim's social contacts tend to erode.

Bullies are created in the home. "Studies suggest that aggression begins in the early caregiver-child interaction." And while it is almost a cliche to indict testosterone, "boys who were rated (by peers and teachers) most physically aggressive at ages six to 12 had lower testosterone levels at age 13 than ordinary peers." Bullying is not hormone-driven, it is learned.

The best defenses against a being targeted by a bully are assertiveness and self-confidence. But while these qualities can be encouraged in "pervasively nonassertive" children, the fact remains that victims tend to be smaller and weaker than bullies (who choose them partly for those qualities). Thus, immediate and decisive adult intervention is necessarily the critical factor in curbing the behavior and protecting its victims.

> Quotations in the above post are from a long but excellent 1995 article in Psychology Today.

K.



Very good points (in general and about the person you quoted).

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/24/2012 11:54:13 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CastleRock32
I don't get it, you seem like a literate, intelligent being. But you completely misunderstand the issue of bullying and what kids face.


You're right. I am a literate, intelligent being. I'm also notionally detached and able to look at this issue both from what I've witnessed and in a logical sense. Logically speaking, you can never and will never "teach away" all the bullies. It just ain't gonna happen. So wha does that leave? It leaves you with the need to ensure the would-be victims know how to respond.

One of the things I've heard psychologists a lot is "You can't control what others do, but you can control how you let it affect you." That is the plainest way to look at this issue. You simply cannot control what another person will do. What you can control is how much power you give them over you nd your emotional state.

Tazzy won't admit it, but she outlined basically exactly what I'm talking about with the example with her son. Suddenly, he and many of his friends knew how to watch each other's backs...and soon the bully has no one left to choose. What is a bully with no one to bully?

(in reply to CastleRock32)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 3:06:16 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So, if everyone learns some self-defense, *POOF*, no more bullies? That is the most silly, ignorant, and naive thing I've read on this thread so far. You actually believe that if someone knows self-defense they can handle a bully? How about the bully's friends? Does your self-defense teach you how to deal with eight or nine bullies at once? How about four on one odds? What happens when the bully is a good student of martial art's (i.e. the old 'Karate Kid' movie)?


I'm going to let you re-read your own assinine statement for your answer, since you just contradicted yourself throughout that entire ridiculous post.


How about instead of behaving like a little child, you enlighten me to your 'profound' wisdom....and....state how its a contradiction.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 3:11:20 AM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
How much pain and suffering have you EVER been in? I'm guessing the most you have experienced is a paper cut. Your are entirely oblivious to the reality such a person suffers through. You lack wisdom, kindness, compassion, and even mature thought. You also lack experience. If you actually had any of these....human...qualities, I know you would never speak on such things. I've never met an individual whom had these qualities and STILL behaved as you do. And I've met quite a number of people in life.

But keep posting as you are. You simply undermine your credibility and worth as a person with each post. In light of evidence to this point, I'd have to seriously ask if you actually know and live by the concept of 'SSC' in BDSM?

Oh noes! Someone on the internetz said I have no worth. I feel so cyber-bullied now. Where's the teacher?


Are you trying to be funny? Because not only is it not funny, it simply shows everyone not to take you seriously in the future. But please, give me a few more 'witty' comments from your treasure trove. You cant answer a single question with a straight up, honest, and truthful answer. You attempt to dance around the issues and questions as if such things do not pertain to you. Not even the most important question in that quote. Maybe we should ask the admins the serious question: Is DarqueMirror ACTUALLY over the age of 18?

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 3:13:46 AM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
How about instead of behaving like a little child, you enlighten me to your 'profound' wisdom....and....state how its a contradiction.


Kirata has already pointed out how you're acting like a child. Why would I respond to you as an adult? I've already shown in previous posts why your reply was a contradiction. I don't need to waste any more time on you than that.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 3:30:21 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thank you for actually seeing what I was trying to say.... and what DM was trying to twist. Creating an atmosphere among many students is far different than telling a child "stick up for yourself". Too bad DM simply cant see that.

And it's too bad that you can't see that the situation with your son did absolutely nothing to "address the bully's behavior," as so many of you have claimed should be done. All it did was create a larger pool of "anti-bullies" that could stand up for themselves...which is what I've been advocating. The more people you teach to stand their ground, the fewer people the bully can pick on.


Its usually not so 'black and white' of an issue. I do get amused that you lack the ability to consider all the grey between the two extremes. What would have happened if that bully, after being attacked by the 'anti-bullies' (as you example it), calls up his friends? The bully and his friends might have numerical superiority, skill in fighting together, and carry a weapon? And they then hunt down the kid and his friends and pummel them severely? Now, is the situation better or worst for the kid who was getting bullied before?

Never forget that the bully might have friends TOO!

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 11:32:20 AM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Its usually not so 'black and white' of an issue. I do get amused that you lack the ability to consider all the grey between the two extremes. What would have happened if that bully, after being attacked by the 'anti-bullies' (as you example it), calls up his friends? The bully and his friends might have numerical superiority, skill in fighting together, and carry a weapon?


Is that what happened? According to Tazzy, it's not. So your "what if's" are just that...."what ifs." That's called a diversionary tactic. I'd say nice try...but it really wasn't.


(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 1:50:35 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: CastleRock32
I don't get it, you seem like a literate, intelligent being. But you completely misunderstand the issue of bullying and what kids face.


You're right. I am a literate, intelligent being. I'm also notionally detached and able to look at this issue both from what I've witnessed and in a logical sense. Logically speaking, you can never and will never "teach away" all the bullies. It just ain't gonna happen. So wha does that leave? It leaves you with the need to ensure the would-be victims know how to respond.

One of the things I've heard psychologists a lot is "You can't control what others do, but you can control how you let it affect you." That is the plainest way to look at this issue. You simply cannot control what another person will do. What you can control is how much power you give them over you nd your emotional state.

Tazzy won't admit it, but she outlined basically exactly what I'm talking about with the example with her son. Suddenly, he and many of his friends knew how to watch each other's backs...and soon the bully has no one left to choose. What is a bully with no one to bully?


But it didn't happen that way overnight.



You are taking a lot of things that pertain to adults and expect that they will be true for children as well.
The brain of a child doesn't work the same as the brain of an adult.

One example: non-adults lack perspective.

Your conclusions that derive from the presumption that children are just miniature adults are faulty.

Also, quite often ( although not in Tazzy's example), it is not 1 bully but bullies involved when someone is picked on.


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(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 1:54:44 PM   
Moonhead


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Even if it's only one obnoxious little shit using another child as a punchbag, everybody else in the class is going to know about it, and won't do a thing in case they're the next victim.

_____________________________

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 2:00:09 PM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

DM,

You assert that suicide is the coward's choice.

It isn't.

It happens when the pain someone is in exceeds a person's resources for coping with that pain.


And thus they are afraid to go on, and think it's the only way out. It's retreating from life. Ie...a coward's choice.


Fear has nothing to do with it except in the case of terminal illness.

Pain is pain, whether it is emotional or physical in it's origin.

Fear is about the future, suicide (for the most part) is about the immediate present; the pain someone is in now.
It is why (to my knowledge) the most effective ways of preventing suicide are
A) Getting them to postpone that decision
B) Work on their coping skills



I wanted to go back to this thought for a minute.
Especially pertaining to non-adults, what I said about fear is not wholly accurate.

Not at all in the "coward" sense (because suicide is not about cowardice), but of course fear can be a motivating factor when someone has reached the end of their coping skills.
[You] know yesterday you were bullied, you know today you were bullied and as far as you know, (particularly when you factor in the neuro-chemistry of anxiety) tomorrow will probably be worse.


_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 3:55:44 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Its usually not so 'black and white' of an issue. I do get amused that you lack the ability to consider all the grey between the two extremes. What would have happened if that bully, after being attacked by the 'anti-bullies' (as you example it), calls up his friends? The bully and his friends might have numerical superiority, skill in fighting together, and carry a weapon?


Is that what happened? According to Tazzy, it's not. So your "what if's" are just that...."what ifs." That's called a diversionary tactic. I'd say nice try...but it really wasn't.


Its 'ok' for you to use 'what ifs' but not anyone else? I'll add that to the growing list of 'things that best discribe DargueMirror'. I asked questions I knew you would never try to answer 'honestly, honorable, and straight up'. You dance around questions, because you dont really have a decent or good enough reply. You support bullies, and try to attack those who are in favor of 'anti-bullying' measures. You behave 'child-like' in a forum full of mature adults. You try to belittle posters when ever possible, and quite often because you dont have a witty comeback! All in all, you cant behave like an adult and answer serious questions with serious, mature, adult-like fashion, that simply speaks 'highly' of your character. Which is to say, you have less credibility in my book than 'Mitt Romney' and 'FOX News'.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 7:49:17 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The bystanders ,accepting the bully`s authority are in a way,with the bully.

From the victim`s viewpoint,it`s hard to separate out the aggressors with everyone else looking at your beat-down or other humiliation.


In my last job, I was an editor for a classroom magazine, and one of my projects was a feature on bullies. As I waded into the topic, I was struck by the importance of the bystanders. Their lack of action strengthens the bully and may even goad him or her to greater cruelty. Bystanders who challenge the bully, however, are more likely to shut down the incident. This was discussed well (if memory serves) in Barbara Coloroso's The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander.

Sadly, the article never ran (long story), but I can still remember the hed and dek:

PEER POWER: Peers can make a bully strong. And they can make a bully stop.

So whatever else we do in terms of teaching kids about this issue, it's worth some effort to train kids to claim their power as bystanders.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 8:10:48 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

DM,

You assert that suicide is the coward's choice.

It isn't.

It happens when the pain someone is in exceeds a person's resources for coping with that pain.


And thus they are afraid to go on, and think it's the only way out. It's retreating from life. Ie...a coward's choice.


Fear has nothing to do with it except in the case of terminal illness.

Pain is pain, whether it is emotional or physical in it's origin.

Fear is about the future, suicide (for the most part) is about the immediate present; the pain someone is in now.
It is why (to my knowledge) the most effective ways of preventing suicide are
A) Getting them to postpone that decision
B) Work on their coping skills

Edit: verb tense


I couldn't read this exchange without thinking of a passage from William Styron's masterly account of depression, Darkness Visible. That slim book has been a lifeline during more bouts than I care to count.

"[T]he pain of severe depression [or, I suspect, severe bullying] is quite unimaginable to those who have not suffered it, and it kills in many instances beause its anguish can no longer be borne, The prevention of suicides will continue to be hindered until there is a general awareness of the nature of this pain. Through the healing process of time--and through medical interventions or hospitalization in many cases--most people survive depression, which may be its only blessing; but to the tragic legion who are compelled to destroy themselves there should be no more reproof attached than to the victims of terminal cancer."


< Message edited by dcnovice -- 4/25/2012 8:15:43 PM >


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 10:14:24 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
But it didn't happen that way overnight.


It never does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
You are taking a lot of things that pertain to adults and expect that they will be true for children as well.
The brain of a child doesn't work the same as the brain of an adult.


No kidding that's why it's up to the parents to teach the bullied kids.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
Your conclusions that derive from the presumption that children are just miniature adults are faulty.


Your presumption about where I derive my conclusions is what's faulty. I base mine on experience, not presumption.


(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 10:21:45 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Its 'ok' for you to use 'what ifs' but not anyone else?


I based my comments on experience, not an endless string of "what ifs." Too bad you can't see that. You'll let me know when it sinks in, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I'll add that to the growing list of 'things that best discribe DargueMirror'.


You could at least spell my name right if all you're going to do is make worthless personal attacks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I asked questions I knew you would never try to answer 'honestly, honorable, and straight up'.


No you didn't. All you did was make up bullshit scenarios in an attempt to be right. You failed. Deal with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You dance around questions, because you dont really have a decent or good enough reply.


An endless strng of ”what ifs" isn't a good reply either. Once again, let me know when that sinks in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You support bullies,


And this is your epic fail. Teaching kids to stand up to bullies is absolutely the *opposite* of supporting bullies. Pity you can't see that either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You behave 'child-like' in a forum full of mature adults.


Said the immature one himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You try to belittle posters when ever possible, and quite often because you dont have a witty comeback!


*Discussions* aren't about "witty comebacks." Again, let me know when that sinks in....and when you grow up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
All in all, you cant behave like an adult and answer serious questions with serious, mature, adult-like fashion, that simply speaks 'highly' of your character. Which is to say, you have less credibility in my book than 'Mitt Romney' and 'FOX News'.


This statement best describes you, not me.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/25/2012 11:16:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

From the victim`s viewpoint,it`s hard to separate out the aggressors with everyone else looking at your beat-down or other humiliation.

After a while....there`s seems to be no hope that it will end.Kids can be very cruel and mercilessly destructive.

I left the bystander issue out of my previous post, it was already getting long enough without it. But the "bystandter problem" is in many ways the crux of the matter, and the reason why the single most effective means of dealing with bullying is a decisive intervention by adults.
    Antonius Cillessen, Ph.D., calls group dynamics "the hidden purpose" of much bullying. A psychologist at the University of Connecticut, he finds that peer groups fan the flames of bullying by conferring reputations that keep bullies and victims frozen in their roles. They especially reinforce victimization. "When children have negative expectations of another child, they act more negatively to that child. This negative behavior then seems to trigger a reciprocally negative reaction from the target child," thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    No matter what victims do, even if they change their behavior, their peers filter observations of them through their negative expectations—and still give a negative interpretation to those kids's actions. As peers see them, they can't do anything right.

    Cillessen is concerned. The power of reputational factors among peers is so strong that what look like obvious remedies will not solve bullying problems. For example, teaching victims social skills—more assertive and socially competent ways of interacting—is necessary but not sufficient. Their peers' perceptions still remain the same, and they act accordingly. His studies furnish proof that bullying can be tackled only with a school-wide program.
Again, this quote is taken from a long 12-page review of the problem published in 1995. To the best of my knowledge, subsequent studies have not undermined the picture it presents.

Same reference as previously: Psychology Today

K.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Bullying... the results - 4/26/2012 2:14:21 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
But it didn't happen that way overnight.


It never does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
You are taking a lot of things that pertain to adults and expect that they will be true for children as well.
The brain of a child doesn't work the same as the brain of an adult.


No kidding that's why it's up to the parents to teach the bullied kids.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
Your conclusions that derive from the presumption that children are just miniature adults are faulty.


Your presumption about where I derive my conclusions is what's faulty. I base mine on experience, not presumption.



Because you stood up to a bully, does not mean that all kids can stand up to bullies.

My experiences and observations are no less valid than yours.


And in some cases, my knowledge (at least in regards to suicide, your assertion of coward[ice] and suicide prevention) is better than yours.



_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 180
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