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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 12:09:53 PM   
tazzygirl


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There is no argument from me in that these countries need to build up their own economical futures.. and we do need to help. However, as in your comments about Afghanistan, if we go in and force that change, then we are the bullies. If we allow them to make their own decisions, then the US is heartless.

As with your own country, the US has problems internally, which is where our attention should remained focused. And maybe once we kick the some of the drama queens out of office this next time around, we can get back to business instead of whining about who is President. But the fact remains, unless we are asked, we, as a country, have no business interfering. There are many who have gone the legal route to enter the US, and are still waiting. Those who enter illegally and saying they are better than the others... something that should never be allowed.

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 12:51:54 PM   
MrBukani


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I know what you mean that sometimes whatever we do its never good. On the other hand our memories always seem to focus on wartime efforts and not peace efforts.

The USA helped the afghans against Russia. It worked, but as soon as the russians moved out, so we lost our interest. And the Taliban rose after that unchecked. The same is happening with Libya right now. We helped them with minimal force the libyans won and we have forgotten them already and focus on the civil war in Syria. It's not wartime that is most important. it's what we do after the war is done.
Maybe it's good if the USA keeps focus for a while on solving internal problems.

In Europe this is a bit harder since we are a young monetary union. Northern Europe is payin a very heavy price for the mistakes of the south. I don't mind paying for our own mistakes. But it's absurd we have to work till the age of 66 now and Greece stops working at 56 or something. That's like payin the bill of your neighbor twice in a row.

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 12:52:51 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.


...Sampson's analysis also revealed that first-generation immigrants were 45 percent less likely to commit violence than third-generation Americans.

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/24/2012 1:00:33 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Desideri Scuri
That video is pathetic. You get nothing of context. You don't see the entire incident. You see the end. Did the USBP use excessive force or use force excessively? Those are not the same issue, and it sure looks as if the latter is the case. What led to the altercation? What happened prior to Mr. Hernandez being tased? If you were to see only the final punch in a KO boxing match, it would sure look like one guy dominated the other. But, without seeing the entire event, you may not have any actual idea on how the match was fought.

So, what precipitated this encounter? What happened prior to the video? Having his widow talk about the "insensitivity" of the USBP and their not considering that Mr. Hernandez was leaving behind his family, is a lame attempt at emotional influence.


Did we watch the same two videos? It's silly to expect videos taken by casual bystanders to tell the complete story, but they do offer us a limited witness account of what happened. I saw:
* An arrested person taken individually to the scene of his eventual death;
* The person subdued and handcuffed, being sat upon by two BP officers;
* Later the same person still on the ground, handcuffed and subdued, surrounded by about a dozen BP officers who were assaulting and Tasering him for no apparent reason;
* I heard the cries of help being shouted by the victim as he was being assaulted;
* I noted that passers by were so concerned at the events they intervened to try to protect the victim and stop the assault;
* I saw two interviews with eye witnesses who both make disturbing allegations in their accounts of what transpired;
* I heard an official account of events that seemed to clash significantly with what I saw, to the extent of being directly contradicted at times;
* There were numerous credible allegations of abuses and assault made against BP personnel by independent witnesses
* A person is dead after being subjected to excessive force by Govt officials.


The person who died didn't represent a threat to anyone subsequent to his arrest. His alleged crime was a fairly minor one. There seems to me to be a prima facie case of murder against some unidentified BP guards, or at the very least, some gravely serious questions over their behaviour. It appears that no action is being taken to resolve some of the glaring gaps between the evidence broadcast and the official account. It also appears, on face value, that there is an emerging pattern of similar abuses/incidents involving this BP force and dead Mexicans.

No doubt there is a lot more evidence yet to be revealed. But, on the basis of the evidence at hand, there appears to be serious cause for concern and some people have a lot of explaining to do.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/24/2012 1:31:52 AM >


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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/24/2012 1:12:34 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
So are you saying law enforcement should be able to fire at will at anyone they think might be breaking a law?
Thought we had trials and juries for a reason...


No but we should have automated sentry guns along the border that fire on anything coming across illegally. That'd be a tricky system to put in place though.....maybe add some piranhas to the Rio Grande.

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/24/2012 3:02:54 AM   
tweakabelle


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Something along these lines seems to be happening already.

The video reported two incidents where Mexicans had been shot by the Border Patrol while they were still inside Mexico. In one case, it was claimed that the kids had been throwing stones at the Border Patrol from the other side of a river that comprises the border - so the BP shot them. In the other case, a Mexican man had climbed a tree near the border but inside Mexico, which has apparently enough to get him shot. No charges have been laid against the BP personnel responsible in either case according to linked reports.

The thought crossed my mind that the BP is already trigger happy enough to satisfy any psychopath. Getting shot (in the head IIRC) seems a rather severe response to climbing a tree in one's own country, a perfectly legitimate thing to do anywhere by any standard.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/24/2012 3:04:01 AM >


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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/24/2012 4:19:30 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

the kids had been throwing stones at the Border Patrol from the other side of a river that comprises the border - so the BP shot them.


There's a video of this incident but I can't watch it. I'm wondering if the BP fired warning shots or went straight to deadly force.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/06/border_patrol_union_defends_me.html

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