Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 4:01:19 PM)

Not them specifically, but the demonization/deification of them.

I have heard too many times in response to a criticism of one of them, "Yes, but <insert the other's name here> did the same thing worse."

That ain't gonna cut it.

Part of the reason we're in such a mess is that we permit the party leader to set the party's policy, and we're supposed to go along with every single plank of his platform.

Wake up, America. Bush had good policies, and bad policies. Obama too. Implying that a policy is good or bad SOLELY BECAUSE OF WHOM IT CAME FROM is ridiculous. Let's judge each policy on a standalone basis, on its own merits.



Owner59 -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 4:19:00 PM)

Could you list bush`s good policies please.

Increased aid to Africa to fight AIDS is the only one I can think of.


And I don`t see any deification of President Obama going on......

http://www2.nationalmemo.com/study-media-coverage-of-obama-consistently-negative/

"In sharp contrast to the perception on the right that the press corps is in the tank for Democrats and Barack Obama, there has not been a single week this year when the president received more positive coverage than negative, according to a media study released Monday.

The nonpartisan report from the Pew Research Center’s Project for Excellence in Journalism found that it was Mitt Romney’s primary win in his home state of Michigan on Feb. 28 that convinced journalists he was certain to be the Republican standard-bearer; from then on, coverage of his candidacy grew considerably more positive.

But the most interesting nugget in the report, which is based on “analysis of the tone and volume of candidate coverage during the 2012 primary season from January 2-April 15 using human coding of 52 key news outlets and computer-assisted coding of more than 11,000 news outlets,” is that Barack Obama has been subjected to sustained negative coverage as Republicans have fought to challenge him:"



tazzygirl -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 5:24:12 PM)

I gotta agree with DS. Not everything Bush did was evil.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 5:25:33 PM)

I think it goes back farther than that Steve.

Try Reagan/BushI



servantforuse -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 5:35:32 PM)

I really think it happened with the Clinton admistration. He polorized the right.



dcnovice -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 6:04:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I think it goes back farther than that Steve.

Try Reagan/BushI


I'd go even farther back, to Adams and Jefferson.



subrob1967 -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 8:07:00 PM)

Um hello, Nixon! More so than LBJ even.



DarkSteven -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/23/2012 8:17:30 PM)

Good points. Nixon IMO was hated not due to his policies, but due to the fact that he wasn't likable. Clinton represents Rush Limbaugh's golden age, when he became famous for criticizing everything Clinton did, right or wrong, true or not. However, conservatives have since been leery of criticizing him because things were so much better under him than Bush regarding the economy and relative freedom from wars. Carter was also pilloried under conservatives as being the worst President ever, despite the fact that his policies weren't that bad.



Moonhead -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 4:27:16 AM)

The atrocity at Kent State and the Watergate fiasco aside, Nixon was a much better President than he tends to be given credit for. There's no doubt that he was much better at diplomacy and foreign policy than anybody you've had since, though a case could be made for that being more Kissinger's work than his.



joether -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 4:41:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I really think it happened with the Clinton admistration. He polorized the right.


What if the right wanted to be polorized during the Clinton administration? And after that, stay that way? Would make comprising more and more difficult, but hey, that serves their agenda, doesnt it? The less people think our form of goverment can work, the more they feel they 'win'. Since during Bush's time, they did things that most people were shocked to see: the number of signing statements, torture, not declaring war to invade countries, pushed us rapidly into debt and deficit, piss on the poor, etc. And then into the Obama administration, they were 'more so' hateful enough to 'diss' a sitting president to his face. Such stuff fifty years ago would have had the whole lot of 'em hanged for treason!



Marc2b -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 7:22:50 AM)

quote:

Implying that a policy is good or bad SOLELY BECAUSE OF WHOM IT CAME FROM is ridiculous. Let's judge each policy on a standalone basis, on its own merits.


This I agree with one hundred percent. Too many people will dismiss an idea outright, with no consideration whatsoever, just because it comes from the other side.

I disagree, however, that this is something new. Humans seem to have a need to have enemies, an evil other that can take the blame for all that is wrong in their lives. The vilification of the other probably goes back to the caveman days.

"Did you here Og's idea for making fire?"

"Screw Og! Og supports mammoth meat redistribution! He opposes the right to bear clubs and club bears!



Moonhead -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 8:12:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Implying that a policy is good or bad SOLELY BECAUSE OF WHOM IT CAME FROM is ridiculous. Let's judge each policy on a standalone basis, on its own merits.


This I agree with one hundred percent. Too many people will dismiss an idea outright, with no consideration whatsoever, just because it comes from the other side.

It's actually even worse than that: most of the Kenyan's first term has been marked by the other party rabidly fillibustering attempted legislation they'd have been all for if it had been Sorebutt trying to get it passed.



tweakabelle -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 11:01:16 AM)

This polarisation is not an exclusively American phenomenon. Politics here are just as polarised, if not worse. Our current Opposition Leader seems to delight in saying NO, loudly and often to any Govt idea or proposal, and his policy seems to consist solely of promising to dismantle whatever the current Govt puts in place. Things aren't helped by the numbers in Parliament, where the Govt doesn't have a majority and is forced to rely on a few Green and Independent votes to get it agenda passed.

This has led to a viciousness and venality in politics where both parties are held in general contempt as one party does anything to cling to power and the other is equally determined and unprincipled about getting their mitts on the levers of power.



Mupainurpleasure -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 12:15:09 PM)

It's really not the right or left it's the 24 hr cable news and AM cycles. They dont have the news to fill the air on cable and keep attention so they slowly adopted models for commercial succuss that required appealing to the most partisan. Crossfire was the hole in the damn the MSNB and FOX after 7 line up the legacy. they are more Baghdad Bob than Walter Cronkite. You can get 4 hrs of villification of both right and left and 4hrs of distortions, weak counter voices presented as balance and p[ick what neews is true. Voter suppression because non felons denied vote...np months of the riduiculous hate group the new black panthers and one man outside a monority voting precinct taking to white guys from fox trying to create news. An irrelevant group turned into the left's push to suppresss votes and white man's boogie man. Some of mattews satatement as beein ridiculous as well and Olberman just presebnts the spoon fed tallking points nicer than hannitty On AM radio it becomes downright dismal. the Becks's Limbaghs, hannitys, Savages regularly say things they know are untrue or they are some of the most uignorant people working inmedia politics toady. I'd write the list but if you have doubt s google has the quotes. On hard news msnbc isn't qute as bad as Fox and they actually have Morning Joe whch I like because it is at least balanced,...unless Joe is to heated up andwon't let anyone talk. Fox hards news has a long history of not inaccurate reporting down right false. i think mit was amonth ago they read republoican talking points verbatim and reported them as a fox study including the repeated typo on screen That isnt news network.Could you imagione a news Anchor reflecting on the President bumpuing fists with someone saying that it is a terrorist fist bump and not getting laughed out the building. Megyn kelly is the epitome of today's non journalist journalsits. the yre long birther nonsense only a fool or a rcist could believe true in the face of the evidence managed to be treated not as man on the grassy knoll conspiracy theory but as somethin unknown and in debate. Kelly has no standards, little if any integrity, a history of fire bomb false statment and a raise. the viewers like her she says things they want to believe it doesnt matter after the fact they are more polarized. We are spoon fed propaganda 24*7. Look at the debt crisis In 1986 that deal between Boehner and Obama goes through and we have a 4 trillion dollar debt reduction commitment. Today it get s railed on 24 hrs straight not for the good of a nation but purelyy the politicl calculations the deal has it's legs cut we get a lower credit rating and a false debt reduction agreemnet of 1.2 trillion. False becuase with in months there were stong partisan voices chipping at it and n the end it wasnt honored by one of the agreeing parties. Again politcal calculations. the reaction to bipartisanship form the extremes in the media and the out to lunch internet is instant and unrelenting today and destroys propsals with half truths and lies. there are people who because it confirm preconceptions already held get their news fro World nut daily, Jihad ewatch and Kod. They dontsee themselves as partisan they see themselves as defiending america from the america hating(left-right u pick)



Mupainurpleasure -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 12:26:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Could you list bush`s good policies please.

Increased aid to Africa to fight AIDS is the only one I can think of.


And I don`t see any deification of President Obama going on......

http://www2.nationalmemo.com/study-media-coverage-of-obama-consistently-negative/

"In sharp contrast to the perception on the right that the press corps is in the tank for Democrats and Barack Obama, there has not been a single week this year when the president received more positive coverage than negative, according to a media study released Monday.

The nonpartisan report from the Pew Research Center’s Project for Excellence in Journalism found that it was Mitt Romney’s primary win in his home state of Michigan on Feb. 28 that convinced journalists he was certain to be the Republican standard-bearer; from then on, coverage of his candidacy grew considerably more positive.

But the most interesting nugget in the report, which is based on “analysis of the tone and volume of candidate coverage during the 2012 primary season from January 2-April 15 using human coding of 52 key news outlets and computer-assisted coding of more than 11,000 news outlets,” is that Barack Obama has been subjected to sustained negative coverage as Republicans have fought to challenge him:"


his aids policies saved millions of lives and are t be commnded ads actual compassionate conservatism. They werent expensive considering the imact. Without mentioning the wars because there are arguments to be made and good ones for his actions if not implementation the greates harm he did us was tax policy. he used ridiculous projections well beyond best outcome to justify those tax cuts. he gave that huge unfunded mandate with a pricetag congrss was lied to on. Now we have the lowest federal tax burden since 1951 and systemic deficits. theirony is the middle class feels overtaxed and generally deies that fact. it's because the cuts were highly concentrated and created double digit drops in highend rates even before the shelters kicked in. Now we have the same thing all over Ryan witheconomic prohjections by heritage propisng huge high tax cuts and promising he will balance the budget in 30??? yrs. One stationcalls him a prophet and ignores the false growth predictions thast include 1 percent nemployment by June next yr and 5 percent annual gdp growth over inflation and defense budhet as prercent of GDP equal to 1925. the otherside dries he is destroying medicare when he is tripling the cost etc etc.. No real center just extremism



LaTigresse -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 12:34:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

It's really not the right or left it's the 24 hr cable news and AM cycles. They dont have the news to fill the air on cable and keep attention so they slowly adopted models for commercial succuss that required appealing to the most partisan.


I actually agree with this.

The powers that be in the media and the consumers, have created the problem.

Treating real news like fodder for Enquirer. Truth be damned, let's make it sensationalistic and drama laden. No one cares about facts and truth, only about the partisan floor shows.



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 6:35:19 PM)

While I agree (of course) with the principle that not everything that any President in our history did is bad, it begs the question of which Presidents have made major enough mistakes to cause a lot of undue hardship. Even if you keep 99 balls in the air, if you drop the really big one the impact is felt far and wide. And on that count, some of our prior Presidents dropped some pretty damning balls....[&:]



Fellow -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 7:53:51 PM)

quote:

Wake up, America. Bush had good policies, and bad policies. Obama too. Implying that a policy is good or bad SOLELY BECAUSE OF WHOM IT CAME FROM is ridiculous. Let's judge each policy on a standalone basis, on its own merits.


Who these people work for, that is the question? There are no bad policies, we just ask: good for whom? Nothing has been ruined, things move towards normal, as it has  been most of the time during human history. Bottom part of the hierarchy pyramid never had much power. Obama is worse than Bush and things will not get any better, be realist.



Arturas -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 10:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Could you list bush`s good policies please.

Increased aid to Africa to fight AIDS is the only one I can think of.


And I don`t see any deification of President Obama going on......

http://www2.nationalmemo.com/study-media-coverage-of-obama-consistently-negative/

"In sharp contrast to the perception on the right that the press corps is in the tank for Democrats and Barack Obama, there has not been a single week this year when the president received more positive coverage than negative, according to a media study released Monday.

The nonpartisan report from the Pew Research Center’s Project for Excellence in Journalism found that it was Mitt Romney’s primary win in his home state of Michigan on Feb. 28 that convinced journalists he was certain to be the Republican standard-bearer; from then on, coverage of his candidacy grew considerably more positive.

But the most interesting nugget in the report, which is based on “analysis of the tone and volume of candidate coverage during the 2012 primary season from January 2-April 15 using human coding of 52 key news outlets and computer-assisted coding of more than 11,000 news outlets,” is that Barack Obama has been subjected to sustained negative coverage as Republicans have fought to challenge him:"



I think he did well at 9/11.
We've had no additional attacks on the U.S. since then. I think due to his taking the war to them. So, your family is sleeping soundly and alive due to his wartime leadership.
He lead the war on Aids in Africa.
Stopped funding of abortions overseas.
Beat John Kerry for a second term suggesting he was doing something very right (sorry for the pun).
1.3 trillion tax cut to stimulate the economy and you must admit we lived well during that time.
No Child Left Behind, while not perfect it was a good first attempt at raising the bar on an Education system controlled by Teacher's Unions.
Strong push for offshore drilling to make us independent of Opec influence. A good thing. A very good thing.
Prevented a complete economic meltdown in the banking system in 2008.

Let's see, Obama...ummm...oh yes, "Change".
Unconstitutional Health Care Scheme.
Lots of parties some of which were crashed.
Watched the distruction of Acorn by right wing investigators.
Did not close Quantonamo Bay as promised.
Increased the number of Americans drawing disability by 300 percent.
Increased the national debt higher than the previous four presidents combined.
Ended the war on the schedule laid out by Bush earlier so he does follow instuctions well.
Wants to lower the amount paid back on student loans, likely a way to buy votes in November kinda like the Quantonamo Bay closing promise in his first run for the Presidency.

oops, almost forgot. Obama was very "angry" at his Secret Service screwing up big time.



DomKen -> RE: Bush and Obama have ruined US politics. (4/24/2012 11:31:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
I think he did well at 9/11.
We've had no additional attacks on the U.S. since then.

Really? The families and friends of Robert Stevens, Thomas Morris Jr, Joseph Curseen, Kathy Nguyen and Ottilie Lundgren would like to know what you think killed them?

quote:


1.3 trillion tax cut to stimulate the economy and you must admit we lived well during that time.

I'll admit no such thing as the economy sucked for the whole time GWB was in office.

quote:

No Child Left Behind, while not perfect it was a good first attempt at raising the bar on an Education system controlled by Teacher's Unions.

It actually did far more harm to public schools than it helped which was likely the purpose from the start.

quote:

Strong push for offshore drilling to make us independent of Opec influence. A good thing. A very good thing.

pure fantasy




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