susannah
Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
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Well, of course. I think I may be being unclear (again hehe) - but the document already states that the author respects the diversity of the subculture, and that the person who wrote it also believes in preserving autonomy and humanity, (so I think she has 'that ground' covered as far as recognizing there will be diversity of opinion as far as how it may end up being interpreted - that is already a "given", at least the way I read it.
I think she posted it here because she is looking for Constructive suggestions, not endless debate about whether the document will actually end up ever being useful. I take for granted it will be (and maybe already has been). What would I change about it, re-phrase or add/subract? Gotta take more time to think about that -
I think there are so many folk who read this message board, that I hope folks toss in some specific statements they might change, or phrases they'd add, so the author can "build on it", hone it, rewrite it, etc. - I think that's why it was posted. There is nothing wrong w/debate, I don't think. But I don't think she is looking to "toss the baby out w/the bathwater" here - not her goal. I think she is looking for ideas re: Maybe what to add or subtract, and to post information for someone who may not know what the difference between SM & abuse actually is. If they don't and they see this article, maybe it will get them thinking about defining it in a personal way.
Any document is open to personal interpretation (as are all "cultural influences - television, newspapers, magazines, partners, friends, parents, siblings, and people interacting on a message board).
I think that is why God (or whoever created consciousness, fill in your own blank here____ , and this includes atheists, but I digress) I think that is why God made lawyers and other vocal debaters. Anyone who reads this article, whether or not they intend to use it - will have to apply it according to their own situation (including what their concept of what "the bdsm community" and "the life-style", etc. actually is for them). Let's hope there is room for a little self determination, and thinking for oneself in interpreting it, or even using the concept of "consensual" has just flown out the window. I still like it this article, and I don't think this article takes away from that concept, because each person determines what their own 'bdsm community' consists of.
There are people in abusive relationships out there. They exist (in and out of any bdsm relationship context). One can say it's "all in the eye of the beholder" - tell that to someone being thrown across a room and having their face smashed into a wall and having their nose broken, who is terrified to leave someone for fear of being stalked and/or killed. I've seen a few net articles where this kind of thing has happened, and it's an extreme example, but people talk about "red flags", and I see this document as just a general "go-by". Is abuse (extreme or other) 'business as usual' in any general conception of relationships in the 'bdsm community' for most folks? My guess is "no". But I think it can and does happen. How often? I don't know. But I think it does. So -
A resource- like this one is nice to have available for them. Thousands of folks read this collarme site - if it can help one person who may read this in a situation like that, I say it's a useful and good thing.
In a nutshell: I've seen similar documents. Actually I like this one BECAUSE it doesn't interpret it's assertions ad infinitum (therefore leaving things open for personal interpretation -which is good because everyone's situation is different).
When I look at just about any document, I consider how it might apply to me personally. Everyone's situation is different, and I think people can justify inside their own head ways to stay in a situation that is actually detrimental to their well-being. They can also see things like this document and start thinking about ways to leave an abusive relationship.
I think it's useful, based on experience, and that it's great as a reference in a general sense, and I think it's good to have here for people to view.
I think Gloria is looking for feedback. If I think of any more, (and I contemplate some things for days on end sometimes, I will e-mail in again).
I think it's fine, but I do hope she gets more feedback and constructive suggestions about what to maybe add, how to phrase something, if it would be helpful to people seeking how to tell the difference between bdsm and abuse, and how to seek help and end an abusive relationship.
**I do think, If anyone has any specific sites to add re: Where to seek help if they feel they are being abused in a bdsm relationship (support groups, crisis lines, etc. - I think that would be a wonderful addition. I don't, but I live in Nebraska and am unfamiliar w/most national resources, bdsm counselors, etc. (there are real live 'bdsm counselors' out there, I've heard).
Large bdsm organizations like the Black Rose Society, and maybe other bdsm organizations in larger cities I've heard, have some Very pro-active members who are also working and doing things like forming "support groups"' and crisis lines. Some people in these organizations may know where to find these folks (and their names could be added, to this document, as time goes on).
**My main thought, bottom line, about why I think it's valuable: It's good to have here for people to view.
**How it applies to them is their business. If any person feels some pressure as in feeling "brainwashed" by their conception of the bdsm community as a result of people around them, (including a partner) and feels it therefore might be "wrong" to seek help well - then I think that's an individualized problem, and they probably need to try to somehow find other acquaintances outside that particular 'bdsm community' for an alternative view of their situation. That in itself is "the red flag" to which lilnotchka may refer.
Or, they can get on the internet and look for differing viewpoints (if they have time, in-between the times they are ducking getting their teeth knocked out, that is). That's one reason it's important - you never know who is reading the collarme message boards, and having site refernces to other sites that define the difference between bdsm and abuse if a great idea.
It could help someone - which I like to think is the reason for the document in the first place (but your point might be one to add to this one, lilnotchka). I think I'd have to know more about someone's personal situation to be able to reach the conclusion that defining the difference for oneself in personal terms using documents has no value.
Consider this possibility:There are who people who are familiar with collarme.com as an information resource message board, and it may be where they get most of their information about bdsm, D/s and it defines for them, "the community".
Or, there are other message boards out there, but maybe this is the one they read most and are most familiar with, and have come to rely upon. I know others exist and I reference them, too, when I need information sometimes. But - people can become creatures of habit. If this is what they read most often, and are not looking in particular for opposing views, but only how it might help them in general terms, and can be specific and objective about how it fits their specific situation - I am glad it's here. Maybe even if they can't do that.
Why? Bottom line - it's possible it could end up saving a life, or alter the quality of one, in a good way. You never know who's reading, or what thery are doing with the information. And what they are doing with it could end up being a good thing, for them. Those are my "criteria." - susannah
< Message edited by susannah -- 11/1/2004 4:26:00 AM >
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