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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 5:04:18 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I've been reading something lately that brought up the study showing how some liberals simply are not capable of comprehending conservative positions. I get the feeling from our interactions that you mostly are clueless about values and belief systems other than your own, and quite happy to just believe the very worst of anyone you disagree with.

Because, of course, all of the conservatives on here perfectly understand the liberal viewpoint and philosophy and have no interest in believing the worst of people they disagree with.
Hell, it isn't like any of them have ever (say) described a right of centre President whose "don't tax and keep spending" agenda is almost identical to the last guy's as a Marxist, is it?
"Teh liberals is all commies who want to get their freeloading mouths on a welfare teat and us to pay for it!" is seen a lot more in here than "Teh Conservatives is all Nazis who want to reinstate the Jim Crow laws!"

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 6:36:17 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Random crucifixions, as an official policy.



Does this mean that we get to feed the Crunchy folks to the lions now?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 7:40:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Winston Churchill said (paraphrasing here, don't remember it exactly).

The Americans always do the right thing.  After exausting every other possibilty.

The conservatives have exhausted those possibilties in the face of overwhelming facts they continue to ignore, and continuous meeching that nobody understands them or will listen any longer.

It isn't that nobody doesnt understand conservative positions, it is that they have been demonstrated repeatedly to be unsound for america.  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/29/2012 7:42:12 AM >

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 1:23:43 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Yeah, well, the thing is that it is typical mischaracterization of what he said.
Now, there is every chance that the judges throwing out for lack of evidence...(we dont know that ratio ) were installed by W and are ratpoison republicans.
But what he said was, like the crucifictions used to make an example, find companies in clear violation of the law and make examples out of them, throw the book at them and that would be the best use of the limited funding and personnel and should serve as a warning and a call to clean up your act to the other scofflaws.
I think the rest of the sky is falling and everyone running around like chickens with their heads cut off unciteable bullshit is idiotlogical, typical teabagging.


http://news.yahoo.com/epa-official-non-compliant-companies-hit-them-hard-234050052--finance.html

The section they quoted directly is:

    I was in a meeting once and I gave an analogy to my staff…the Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean. They’d go into a little Turkish town somewhere, they’d find the first five guys they saw and they would crucify them. And then you know that town was really easy to manage for the next few years.
    And so you make examples out of people who are in this case not compliant with the law. Find people who are not compliant with the law, and you hit them as hard as you can and you make examples out of them, and there is a deterrent effect there.
    And, companies that are smart see that, they don’t want to play that game, and they decide at that point that it’s time to clean up.


So, Armendariz stated that you make examples out of those who are not in compliance. Very true. However, his statement there is not the same as his analogy. The juicy details of his analogy are this: "...they'd find the first five guys they saw and they would crucify them." So, it wasn't "the first five guys they found breaking the law."

Is his analogy correct? It sure seems to be in the case of the Texas oil/gas driller. The only issue I have with his "make examples out of people" comment is that I don't believe you over-penalize, but penalize to the extent the infraction deserves. If some company dumped a bucket of phosphorous-laden chemicals into the river, I wouldn't penalize them to the same extent as a nuclear facility dumping barrels of radioactive cooling water.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 1:43:22 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		DS, if you listen to the video, you will find that your source left out a key part of what Armendariz said. The missing words appear in bold below:

I was in a meeting once and I gave an analogy to my staff about my philosophy of enforcement, and I think it was probably a little crude and maybe not appropriate for the meeting but I’ll go ahead and tell you what I said. It was kind of like how the Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean.”


Please note that he offered not one but two disclaimers--crudeness and potential inappropriateness--before he unveiled the analogy, for which he has also apologized, another part of the story that your source left out. Armendariz also said that his approach was "kind of" like what the Romans did, not that he was taking them as a literal model.

As if all that were not plain enough, he then went on to clarify that he's talking about "people who are in this case not compliant with the law"--a far cry from the random victims abused by the Romans.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 4/29/2012 1:45:11 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 2:05:17 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		DC, just because a metaphor is crude and inappropriate doesn't mean it can't be absolutely apt and descriptive. He obviously liked that metaphor for his philosophy, and used it repeatedly.

Do you notice what some have tried to do on this thread? They wish to equate any questioning of how power mad little fucks go about doing their jobs, with an attack on the existence of the entire agency. It seems ironic to me that today is also the 20th anniversary of the LA Riots, where those same people would doubtless insist that it was ridiculous to suggest that because they criticized the cops that beat Rodney, they were calling for the banning of police in Los Angeles.


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/29/2012 5:22:20 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

He obviously liked that metaphor for his philosophy, and used it repeatedly.


Well, he said in the video that he'd used the analogy "once" in a meeting, and he used it again at whatever gathering was filmed. Persnickety editor that I am, I'm not sure I'd count twice as "repeatedly." That said, he does seem to like the analogy. I think it's important, therefore, to look at the context in which he used it. He started out talking about the limited resources of his enforcement team and the resulting need to be strategic.

Then came the Romans, the shock-and-awe experts of the ancient world, whose tactics he'd identified as being "kind of like" his approach to undertaking enforcement with limited resources. I'll come back to them in a minute.

Armendariz then quickly said that he was talking about "people who are in this case not compliant with the law." He thus bracketed the Romans fore and aft with his primary concern, his duty to oversee the enforcement of environmental laws.

So now back to the Romans. What was Armendariz drawing from them? Given that he set the analogy within the context of law enforcement, I honestly don't think he was advising random persecution of innocent people as a terror tactic. What I think was he was trying to say--and, dear God, I wish he'd found another way to say it--is that law enforcers with limited resources (akin, if you want to go with the analogy, to the Romans' being vastly outnumbered by the folks they were conquering) sometimes use the power of example, by prosecuting malefactors, as a tool to encourage compliance with the law. As I said earlier in the thread, I wish that were not necessary, but men are not angels.

quote:

Do you notice what some have tried to do on this thread? They wish to equate any questioning of how power mad little fucks go about doing their jobs, with an attack on the existence of the entire agency.


I did, but I didn't pay it much mind. Folks may have been confused by the thread title (which might seem to target the entire agency) or the language in the OP (which appeared to pin one man's ill-conceived comments on the entire "Obama administration"). I also think P&R posters tend to paint with fairly broad brushes (he says broadly), so I'm not surprised to see it here.

Edited because I seem to be particularly typo-prone tonight.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 4/29/2012 5:35:44 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/30/2012 5:43:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
DS, if you listen to the video, you will find that your source left out a key part of what Armendariz said. The missing words appear in bold below:
I was in a meeting once and I gave an analogy to my staff about my philosophy of enforcement, and I think it was probably a little crude and maybe not appropriate for the meeting but I’ll go ahead and tell you what I said. It was kind of like how the Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean.”

Please note that he offered not one but two disclaimers--crudeness and potential inappropriateness--before he unveiled the analogy, for which he has also apologized, another part of the story that your source left out. Armendariz also said that his approach was "kind of" like what the Romans did, not that he was taking them as a literal model.
As if all that were not plain enough, he then went on to clarify that he's talking about "people who are in this case not compliant with the law"--a far cry from the random victims abused by the Romans.


So, if I were to call you a slew of racial epithets, it would be okay if I started off with a disclaimer that my following comments are crude or inappropriate? Or, how about the "no offense intended" phrase?

I did separate his analogy from his commentary, too. His commentary was that you make an example out of those who were not in compliance. I got that and even had that in my post. His analogy was not of the same ilk. His analogy was that the Romans take the first 5 guys they saw and crucify them as an example of the brutality the Romans were capable of, and willing to use. I even commented that the philosophy statement and the analogy did not line up properly. Additionally, I do believe the EPA's treatment of the Texas company in the story, aligns more with the analogy than the stated philosophy; a philosophy I agree with more than I disagree with.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/30/2012 4:29:15 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Well, Armendariz has resigned.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/30/2012 5:25:08 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I've been reading something lately that brought up the study showing how some liberals simply are not capable of comprehending conservative positions. I get the feeling from our interactions that you mostly are clueless about values and belief systems other than your own, and quite happy to just believe the very worst of anyone you disagree with.


I've been reading something lately that brought up the study showing how some conservatives simply are not capable of comprehending liberal positions. I get the feeling from our interactions that you mostly are clueless about values and belief systems other than your own, and quite happy to just believe the very worst of anyone you disagree with.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 4/30/2012 5:30:41 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

It seems ironic to me that today is also the 20th anniversary of the LA Riots, where those same people would doubtless insist that it was ridiculous to suggest that because they criticized the cops that beat Rodney, they were calling for the banning of police in Los Angeles.


Didn't the lapd just get their badge back from doj after numerous years on probation for being a criminal organizaton?

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 6:17:35 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Well, Armendariz has resigned.

It's going to be fun applying this new standard to the next republican administration, if there is one in my lifetime.

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 6:32:17 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		But if you talk about a Republican administration like this (or even vaguely critically), then it's because you hate America and want the terrorists to win, remember?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 6:51:06 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Well, Armendariz has resigned.

It's going to be fun applying this new standard to the next republican administration, if there is one in my lifetime.

Hell why wait? Joe Wilson disrupts a joint session of Congress by heckling the Presidewnt and calling him a Liar. Unheard of and he was either an idiot or a liar...............result huge uptick in fundraising for joe. I wonder if the reason he has so much disdain for the man he can disrespect the office is hismembership in a group that basically says slavery was biblical and ok and interracial breeding isnt

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 1:08:33 PM   
papassion


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It sure is comforting to know that when you starve to death because you have no work, that your last breath will be fresh air! Of course we want clean air and clean water but it has to be practical. Enviromentalists don't want neuclear, windmills or coal, and balk at anything that might endanger some insect or animal. What they want is something that is not yet invented. That is not a practical solution

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 1:09:46 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


It sure is comforting to know that when you starve to death because you have no work, that your last breath will be fresh air! Of course we want clean air and clean water but it has to be practical. Enviromentalists don't want neuclear, windmills or coal, and balk at anything that might endanger some insect or animal. What they want is something that is not yet invented. That is not a practical solution

What percentage of your population does work at powerplants employ?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 1:19:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


It sure is comforting to know that when you starve to death because you have no work, that your last breath will be fresh air! Of course we want clean air and clean water but it has to be practical. Enviromentalists don't want neuclear, windmills or coal, and balk at anything that might endanger some insect or animal. What they want is something that is not yet invented. That is not a practical solution

You having fun just making shit up?

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/1/2012 4:58:59 PM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


It sure is comforting to know that when you starve to death because you have no work, that your last breath will be fresh air! Of course we want clean air and clean water but it has to be practical. Enviromentalists don't want neuclear, windmills or coal, and balk at anything that might endanger some insect or animal. What they want is something that is not yet invented. That is not a practical solution

youtalkof extremist not the epa which approcved the first new nuclear reactor in a quqarter cedntury last year. As to coal theysaid thescrubbers would drive themmout of business theydidnt. They just cleaned our air. The thing to keepo in mind with regualtions on enviroment are the health costs of mnot mregulating. I inderstand the point you make but if it costs 50 billion to address a smoike stack mercury issue and the mercury causes 100 billion in life time medical costs and health issues on top of suffering there is an axctual economic benefit. A lot of folks dont understand that piece. An example 10 to one cost benefit yet i can read volune son it being costly asnd an overregulation. Geesh is it crazy to think Ny should have limits on the mercury it dumps in ct?

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RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/3/2012 8:47:00 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


It sure is comforting to know that when you starve to death because you have no work, that your last breath will be fresh air! Of course we want clean air and clean water but it has to be practical. Enviromentalists don't want neuclear, windmills or coal, and balk at anything that might endanger some insect or animal. What they want is something that is not yet invented. That is not a practical solution



It would appear that you are unfamiliar with a thing called the food chain.
Please do acquaint yourself with it's protocols before you embarass yourself further.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Environmental Crucifixion Agency - 5/3/2012 8:50:45 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		It was my understanding that a lot of American environmentalists were pro nuclear. Not the Sierra Club or the monkeywrenchers, but those with a bit more of a clue about engineering.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 60
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