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The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that just... - 4/28/2012 6:10:12 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		The title of this is wrong but I haven't yet come up with a better one.

On another thread someone voiced wanting something quite extreme; she has voiced this before.

Occasionally we get men claim they want their balls to be literally crushed by a Domme.
Sometimes men write about how to find someone who will castrate them.

I have read more than one woman who has wanted her clitoris removed so as not to be distracted by sexual desires when serving her Master.

These are the things that make us wince and cringe and quickly suggest professional help.

For Edge Players though, nailing their slave's breasts to a board is just another night of a good time had by all and serious hook suspension has a devoted following.


Some people can't stomach the idea of a Daddy Dom and for others Sadistic tops makes their stomachs flip and not in a good way.... and for those on the other side of both of those activities there can be beauty, love, ecstasy, nurture, empowerment... endless positive adjectives.

Somewhere there are these lines between horrible harm and abuse (even when activities are consentual) and consentual BDSM activities and relationships.

The difference between unacceptable and YKINMK, I know where the line is for me (I think)... where is it for you?

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 6:21:30 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Wow, very profound question.

Unacceptable at one extreme - causing permanent harm or damage. The definition of that is even debatable.

Another fine line is taking advantage of someone, as in manipulating them so they do things they don't really want to do, that aren't really in their best interest (another sticking point, who defines that, usually should be them if they can give informed consent). I know subs do such things to please their masters, but that again is a fine line where it turns into being used and abused, because they're not "getting something out of it" or having their "needs met". But when does this turn into abuse?

Maybe another good question is when "having their needs met" turns into true abuse. You've heard of suicide by cop, well how about suicide by dom?


< Message edited by Karmastic -- 4/28/2012 6:24:32 PM >

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 6:29:09 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
The difference between unacceptable and YKINMK, I know where the line is for me (I think)... where is it for you?

I think a good first approximation would be to say, "Anything consistent with the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights and similar international documents." That would remove at least some of the cultural bias. Then, for example, clitoridectomy is unacceptable, but most forms of extreme body modification are ok.

The following aren't kinks of mine, but straddle my acceptable/unacceptable line:

1. ephebophilia (attraction to eg 15 year old girls)
2. emotional masochism
3. the buying and selling of consensually nonconsensual slaves

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 6:33:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		for me the line is drawn when it goes against my morals and values and when it affects another party who has not consented. If someone wants to chop off their balls or clit, I have absolutely no problems with it and I would not suggest they see a therapist. If that's what they want then so be it. It's not affecting anyone else except themselves and it's not against my morals and values.


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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 6:35:12 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Angelika, I had a thought very much like this last night and I will admit it got a song stuck in my head. "I would do anything for love (lust, passion, etc) but I won't do that" I do a lot of edge play and I have seen people some pretty messed up things but, outside of what I just find gross do to things like smell, I draw the line and killing someone.

*oh* or dismembering someone. Because being an amputee isn't as fun as it sounds.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 4/28/2012 6:36:37 PM >

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 7:42:39 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
...These are the things that make us wince and cringe and quickly suggest professional help... I know where the line is for me (I think)... where is it for you?


Observing someone else's dynamic? I'd say the lines are seeing non-consent, someone unfit to give consent, auxilliary people or animals being endangered or harmed, or non-consenting parties being unduly distressed.

Those lines become blurry if you scrutinize them; for example, what makes someone unfit to give consent? Does wanting your arms and legs cut off make you mentally ill?

As a general rule, as long as there's consent it's the business of the people involved and not of professionals.

But does seeing certain things still turn my stomach? Sure.

Pam


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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 8:11:16 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

The title of this is wrong but I haven't yet come up with a better one.

On another thread someone voiced wanting something quite extreme; she has voiced this before.

Occasionally we get men claim they want their balls to be literally crushed by a Domme.
Sometimes men write about how to find someone who will castrate them.

I have read more than one woman who has wanted her clitoris removed so as not to be distracted by sexual desires when serving her Master.

These are the things that make us wince and cringe and quickly suggest professional help.

For Edge Players though, nailing their slave's breasts to a board is just another night of a good time had by all and serious hook suspension has a devoted following.


Some people can't stomach the idea of a Daddy Dom and for others Sadistic tops makes their stomachs flip and not in a good way.... and for those on the other side of both of those activities there can be beauty, love, ecstasy, nurture, empowerment... endless positive adjectives.

Somewhere there are these lines between horrible harm and abuse (even when activities are consentual) and consentual BDSM activities and relationships.

The difference between unacceptable and YKINMK, I know where the line is for me (I think)... where is it for you?


Well....I'd like to keep my dick and balls (but that's just me).

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 8:19:37 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Okay, but these issues go much deeper. It might be okay for you to let someone castrate you or cut off your clit. There may be others who (collectively) don't want to pay for it.

B/c you know, we are all in this together. And yeah finances mean it's mostly not in a good way. I don't want to pay for your kink, I want to pay for indulging in my own. This is where most humans are.

Do you think you can change that?

How?



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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 8:19:45 PM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

for me the line is drawn when it goes against my morals and values and when it affects another party who has not consented. If someone wants to chop off their balls or clit, I have absolutely no problems with it and I would not suggest they see a therapist. If that's what they want then so be it. It's not affecting anyone else except themselves and it's not against my morals and values.



Hey littlewonder

I guess I have a different view...or maybe....just different values.
I do have a problem with someone who inflicts harm on themselves. I know a LOT of people who cut themselves--they do it for a variety of reasons--and none of them are particularly emotionally healthy ones. They may be harming only themselves, but that doesn't mean that it's okay. (even if it gives them pleasure)

Some of the things that jumped out at me from the original post--if a person is doing something to themselves that a) may be irreversible and/or harmful and b) they are doing to please someone else ("I'm going to cut off my balls so that I won't desire anyone but my mistress" or "I'm going to have my clit renoved to please master") that for me draws a line.

It's like an extreme form of co-dependency.

Not too many fetishes really squick me out--I may not understand them, and may not want to watch or participate, but when I hear/see things that I know are teetering on that line between healthy "fun" and harmful, that's when I get squicked.

Sometimes I think folks get caught up in a pissing contest to see who can be the most extreme just for the sake of it.

edited for typos

< Message edited by hausboy -- 4/28/2012 8:21:10 PM >

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 9:31:50 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I do lots of things that some people see as "self harm". I eat meat...vegetarians say I'm harming myself. I take antipsychotic meds. Again some people say I'm harming myself. I used to love to cut myself for ritual purposes. Some saw it as self harm. I let Master do whatever he wants to me and anyone who knows him knows how extreme he can be. Many people say I'm self harming because of that. I never and still don't see any of those as self harm. So who am I to say what someone else does is so wrong? So I don't. If I listened to what everyone else thinks of me I'd be one miserable person and probably would have committed suicide by now. Thankfully I don't and I wouldn't expect anyone else to listen to me either telling they are wrong.

Sure I get squicked out by some things people do...hell I get squicked out by things Master wants and will do to me. But that doesn't mean they are wrong to me. It just means I get squeamish even thinking of them being done to me if and/or when it will be done to me.

Plus I'm not everyone else's mommy or caretaker. I have a hard enough time taking care of myself and I've already raised my child. I don't want anymore thanks.



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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 9:34:51 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Good timing angelikaJ

Carol and I just watched a show on feeders. The feedee and feeder together hoped to get her to 1000lbs and immobile. It was hard to hear that. On the other hand, both people seemed to be reasonably well adjusted and quite happy if you ignore the death wish part. In the end, my assessment was that it wasn't my place to judge. She'd had serious life long weight issues and then found a guy who adored her and wrapped her in love and attention. Yup, it was going to be a short life. But I also thought it was quite likely to be a much better life than what she had before. Tough call and not mine to make.

edited to add
Oh yeah, and about that hook pull thing *laughs*. We have some pretty normal friends who are quite into it. They've invited us along next time and I think we'll go. Oddly, it doesn't sound all that extreme to me. It doesn't sound particularly kinky either but I think it's an experience that is probably worth having. Carol probably disagrees *laughs* but that's why I'm the boss.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 4/28/2012 9:37:10 PM >

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 9:48:03 PM   
kitkat105


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/29/2011
From: Eating dutch crunch in the Silicon Valley
Status: offline 		I think I know where the line is drawn for me. The interesting part is being new to BDSM/kink, 6 months ago there were a lot of things I would never entertain the idea of doing, they were without a doubt hard limits for me. However, with trust and the development of my relationship with my Sir, these former hard limits are not limits at all. There are some things I won't change my mind on though, and they are the things I consider extreme, have no interest in participating in or are illegal.

With that said, when some people (especially newbies to the board who we don't "know") post about their desire for something extreme I can't help but wonder how much of it is genuine and how much is fantasy (eg. they saw it in porn). But at the end of the day, like you said, your kink is not my kink.

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 9:50:18 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		The hook pull is not extreme physically. On other levels...well, it was an adventure!

Coercion, forced consent (and I mean the real kind of forced, as in an abusive relationship), destroying someone's health or livelihood, all those are serious things to me.

Emotional masochism bothers me...but i know people that play with that and are fine with it.

It's a world of folks. The ones that wouuld be horrified at my fingerpainting with blood might do things that turn me off. As long as all parties walk away happy, I'm okay.

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 9:56:29 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
It's a world of folks. The ones that wouuld be horrified at my fingerpainting with blood might do things that turn me off. As long as all parties walk away happy, I'm okay.

LOL... I've ever quite figured out what "extreme" means. As you say, it's a world of folks. Apparently, leech play is extreme. I grew up swimming in the mill pond in town. A leech here and there was just a fact of life. I'd plop a few on myself without a qualm. Apparently, Carol's and my dynamic is extreme to those same folks. Go figure.

But I think it gets harder to be so casual about it when we're talking about something like that feeder/feedee couple where death was pretty much the inevitable result.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 10:01:45 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Feeders bother me, but at the same time, they are being HONEST about enabling behavior that goes on all the time with the seriously morbidly obese. How does someone bedridden from obesity procure 10K calories a day without help?



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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/28/2012 10:09:19 PM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		There are TONS of things that I just don't understand, that I disagree with, and that really bother me or gross me out.

It becomes actually unacceptable when one causes any form of damage to someone--be it themselves or others. However, what constitutes "damage" is subjective, and different for everyone. For some, having their balls removed would not constitute the definition of damage, and for others it would certainly apply as damage. As another example: for me, anything I feel is degrading to me would be damaging to my psych--for others, not so much...they get off on/enjoy that which would just destroy me. It's subjective like that. One person's "damage" is another's fetish and vice versa. So unfortunately, an all-encompassing rule cannot be made here, since it's all dependent on the individuals and circumstances.

There are things I consider universally damaging. For example, involving children or animals in any form of sexual activity, or hurting them in some way. I believe this is universal because these parties are unable to consent. As someone else pointed out, the line of "who is fit to consent" gets a little wobbly and gray somewhere along the spectrum, but certain things are dead set in the obvious zone.


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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/29/2012 1:54:18 AM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Other than list "I won't do x...." this is a hard question to answer. For me, hurt is fine; harm is not. That said - the same action with the same strength could easily hurt a but harm b. The goalposts also move over time and as relationships change. Something that's a hard limit now might not be in - say - 5 years time. Is knife play that leaves a scar beautiful or mutilation?

Sorry but short of - today - with this partner - this is my hard limit list - I don't think I can answer the question.

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/29/2012 5:39:43 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I do lots of things that some people see as "self harm". I eat meat...vegetarians say I'm harming myself. I take antipsychotic meds. Again some people say I'm harming myself. I used to love to cut myself for ritual purposes.


Only one of these is potentially in the DSM - I don't know what you mean by ritual cutting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-harm

...Self-harm (SH) or deliberate self-harm (DSH) includes self-injury (SI) and self-poisoning and is defined as the intentional, direct injuring of body tissue most often done without suicidal intentions.

...Behaviours associated with substance abuse and eating disorders are usually not considered self-harm because the resulting tissue damage is ordinarily an unintentional side effect.[6] However, the boundaries are not always clear-cut and in some cases behaviours that usually fall outside the boundaries of self-harm may indeed represent self-harm if performed with explicit intent to cause tissue damage.

Hmm - "explicit intent to cause tissue damage" kinda rings a bell...

Perhaps motivation needs to come into play:

The motivations for self-harm vary and it may be used to fulfill a number of different functions.[12] These functions include self-harm being used as a coping mechanism which provides temporary relief of intense feelings such as anxiety, depression, stress, emotional numbness or a sense of failure or self-loathing and other mental traits including low self-esteem[13] or perfectionism.

So the line for me is self-harm combined with self-loathing.



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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/29/2012 6:08:56 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Great OP and it brings to mind an example from the endlessly recycled discussion about obedience. If Master told you to put your finger on the chopping block, would you? I usually ask, so what if he does take her finger? Would you pay a finger to prove you are his, to cement the bond in a manner that cannot be undone, to mark from this day forward your connection paid for in flesh? Don't be fooled, there is no correct answer. There are only different perspectives.

I wish I could draw lines. I wish had a definable set of morals. In my lifetime I have seen a few things that appear extreme. It has been legal to drill a hole in the forearm of a runaway wife, drop a ring through it and chain her to your house. The international average age of consent is 12 years old and you can sell your sons and daughters. Public caning. A death sentence for non lethal crimes. Kevorkian both praised and scrutinized.

So in this world, who am I to judge ball crushing, consensual castration or a little finger chopping? Mans innate feeling he can judge, predict or even draw lines for himself is something I often lack. From deep down in my core, I believe that given the right situation, I am capable of anything. So instead of lines, judgements, I view my course as set by my preferences, not my morals or lack thereof.

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RE: The Fringe: permanent self harm vs the things that ... - 4/29/2012 9:47:16 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		I feel that as long as two people enter into an activity with full consent, then it's fine.

Something squicking me or striking me as too dangerous for my tastes, or otherwise being outside my comfort zone is no reason for other people to rein themselves in. If they aren't harming *me* non-consensually, it's really none of my business even if they *are* choosing to harm or risk harming themselves.

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