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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/5/2012 5:24:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Has nothing to do with a "like" or dislike for the author -- it has to do with accepting numbers at face value from one that has a history of misleading.

This is of course an argumentum ad hominem as a number of users have pointed out to you.

Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/5/2012 5:35:41 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Has nothing to do with a "like" or dislike for the author -- it has to do with accepting numbers at face value from one that has a history of misleading.

This is of course an argumentum ad hominem as a number of users have pointed out to you.

Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.

K.

Yes actually it is if you are claiming Dick a nuclear physicist is wrong about the make up of the sun because he is a rapist. The powerline articles for the most part didnt even attack the actual points the man was making but cheery picked and distorted. Hell, when you look at what they were critisizing him for they made him look smarter 10 yrs out. Plus the actual numbers really are widely available and well sourced and tax foundation is hardly liberal city

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/5/2012 7:33:07 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes I agree there are legitimate reasons for the redistribution of wealth. What's the point???



Ah... that may very well be the disconnect that we've had during this debate.  The "point" is... if one does not know WHAT comprises the aforementioned "government transfers", then one cannot credibly deem such "government transfers" as "handouts", which the author does.  To hopefully better illustrate this point, I doubt you or anyone else would deem Social Security, for example, a "handout".  So that is the "point"... these blind-numbers alone do not, ipso-facto, equate to "handouts" -- that's little more than the author's political pissing about.


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 5:54:48 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes I agree there are legitimate reasons for the redistribution of wealth. What's the point???



Ah... that may very well be the disconnect that we've had during this debate.  The "point" is... if one does not know WHAT comprises the aforementioned "government transfers", then one cannot credibly deem such "government transfers" as "handouts", which the author does.  To hopefully better illustrate this point, I doubt you or anyone else would deem Social Security, for example, a "handout".  So that is the "point"... these blind-numbers alone do not, ipso-facto, equate to "handouts" -- that's little more than the author's political pissing about.


See, it's odd to me you dont know mwhat the transfer are when I posted the link several times. it's also odd to hear a coinservative defend wealth redistribution because of "need"

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 8:50:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.

Yes actually it is if...

So in other words, it's not. Thanks, that was fun.

K.

(in reply to Dom4subssub4doms)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 11:26:55 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes I agree there are legitimate reasons for the redistribution of wealth. What's the point???



Ah... that may very well be the disconnect that we've had during this debate.  The "point" is... if one does not know WHAT comprises the aforementioned "government transfers", then one cannot credibly deem such "government transfers" as "handouts", which the author does.  To hopefully better illustrate this point, I doubt you or anyone else would deem Social Security, for example, a "handout".  So that is the "point"... these blind-numbers alone do not, ipso-facto, equate to "handouts" -- that's little more than the author's political pissing about.



...what the transfers are when I posted the link several times.



Addressed said "link" in Post #98.



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(in reply to Dom4subssub4doms)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 1:43:12 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
Status: offline 		oops looks like their are more seniors on social security in the blue than the red outside of FLA again explain how a state paying 5k per capita in federal taxes isnt getting subsidized by a state paying 15k per capita? They are paying 1/3 as much per citizen across the board gfor everything from defense to nasa to the hated epa


its a no brainer people making less money qualify for more goverment aids...whats so hard to grasp?


Now anser my question or "I win" please do so using conservative principles because I dont have a problem with redistribution to aid poor states it's a liberal value

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 1:48:18 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.

Yes actually it is if...

So in other words, it's not. Thanks, that was fun.

K.

tricksy tricksy...partial quote Yes actually it is if you are claiming Dick a nuclear physicist is wrong about the make up of the sun because he is a rapist. "Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
attacking the person instead of attacking his argument. For example, "Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler." "

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 2:32:08 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

Yes actually it is if you are claiming Dick a nuclear physicist is wrong about the make up of the sun because he is a rapist.

But I'm not. So it's not.

Hold that thought.

K.

(in reply to Dom4subssub4doms)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 2:39:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.


Whom are we comparing to a serial rapist? Krugman?

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 2:44:23 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Does noone understand what an analogy is?

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 2:47:08 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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Once again...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

I gave you the link wth the listing...



No... you provided a link with a mere SIX components (for 2009) -- is that the COMPLETE ACCOUNTING for what the author termed "Government Transfers" to the various states that are being compared?!!  NO, it's not!!! 





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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 2:56:20 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Does noone understand what an analogy is?


Well, I thought I did, but I went to Dictionary.com to see what they had to say:

quote:

a·nal·o·gy   [uh-nal-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural a·nal·o·gies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2.
similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3.
Biology . an analogous relationship.
4.
Linguistics .
a.
the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b.
a form resulting from such a process.
5.
Logic . a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.
Origin:
1530–40; < Latin analogia < Greek. See analogous, -y3

Synonyms
1. comparison, likeness, resemblance, similitude, affinity. 2. correspondence.


The key definitions appear to be one and two.

Which leaves me wondering: Do you see a basis for comparison or a similariity between Krugman (if that's whom Kirata meant) and a serial rapist?



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 3:21:13 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Which leaves me wondering: Do you see a basis for comparison or a similariity between Krugman (if that's whom Kirata meant) and a serial rapist?



Each has an aspect in which they shouldn't be trusted, would be what Kirata is pointing at seems to me.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 4:06:07 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Which leaves me wondering: Do you see a basis for comparison or a similariity between Krugman (if that's whom Kirata meant) and a serial rapist?



Each has an aspect in which they shouldn't be trusted, would be what Kirata is pointing at seems to me.

based on powerline articles.......Powerline calling krugman a lair is like iran saying there was no Holocaust

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 4:30:39 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Which leaves me wondering: Do you see a basis for comparison or a similariity between Krugman (if that's whom Kirata meant) and a serial rapist?

Each has an aspect in which they shouldn't be trusted, would be what Kirata is pointing at seems to me.


Well let's briefly go back to the beginning on this one. Leaving specific individuals out of it, just consider the following statement:
    it has to do with accepting numbers at face value from one that has a history of misleading.
This was declared to be an argumentum ad hominem. I said no:
    Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.
My purpose was only to show a starker example of the same form.

In both cases the arguments rest on relevant information that cautions against accepting something at face value. An ad hominem is by definition based on factors that are irrelevant. It's the irrelevancy of these factors that make the argument false; a logical fallacy. Where the factors are relevant, as they are in both examples above, there is no ad hominem and no fallacy in the logic advising caution.

Also no package of hidden meanings.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/6/2012 4:58:52 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 4:49:31 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Yeah...I just kinda get annoyed when all someone seems willing to take from that is "You're comparing Krugman to a serial rapist!"

The last analogy I'd made here involved birth control and heroin, and the wild, crazy accusations that resulted from that was beyond absurd.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 5:02:00 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



Well let's briefly go back to the beginning on this one. Leaving specific individuals out of it, just consider the following statement:
    it has to do with accepting numbers at face value from one that has a history of misleading.
This was declared to be an argumentum ad hominem. I said no:
    Advising Jane against dating Dick because he has six rape convictions is not an ad hominem argument.
My purpose was only to show a starker example of the same form.

K.


But in a trial for a rape charge, 6 prior offenses do not actually make the person guilty of a 7th offense. Not to mention that suspicion of 6 prior offenses has no bearing whatsoever. The prosecution must still prove in the 7th instance that the defendant did in fact rape the victim. That's the way PROOF works.

If all people are trying to do is "warn" against Krugman, that is one thing. But that's not what's happening. People are trying to "convict" him in the public eye, of misleading because they happen to believe he has misled in the past. To which others in this thread are simply saying, "PROVE IT". And as no proof is forthcoming, it's starting to look like Krugman might be trustworthy in this instance.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 5:09:35 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I'm not a great fan of arguing by analogy, in large part because the choice of image/comparison can be, as I think it is here, as distracting as it is illuminating. I could see if one had brought up, say, the boy who cried wolf, but turning the dial all the way to a serial rapist seems extreme--and also counterproductive, in that it totally overshadows the original point.

Kirata, Ralikun: You both strike me as straight shooters, so I'll count on you to level with me. If a liberal poster had used the same image in discussing whether a conservative columnist's statistics were valid, would you have accepted it as an apt analogy? A fair comparison?

In terms of the general P&R reaction in such an instance, my guess is that the analogy would have been cited as an example of the "demonization" tactics that the left learned at Alinsky's knee.

I know dwelling on the aptness (or not) of an analogy may seem like a fine point, but that very linguistic nuance just led to the resignation, under no small amount of pressure from the right, of an EPA official.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/6/2012 5:41:22 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

In terms of the general P&R reaction in such an instance, my guess is that the analogy would have been cited as an example of the "demonization" tactics that the left learned at Alinsky's knee.

All inferences are the property of their owners.

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 120
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