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conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 2:32:50 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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February 16, 2012


Moochers Against Welfare

By PAUL KRUGMAN


First, Atlas shrugged. Then he scratched his head in puzzlement.

Modern Republicans are very, very conservative; you might even (if you were Mitt Romney) say, severely conservative. Political scientists who use Congressional votes to measure such things find that the current G.O.P. majority is the most conservative since 1879, which is as far back as their estimates go.

And what these severe conservatives hate, above all, is reliance on government programs. Rick Santorum declares that President Obama is getting America hooked on “the narcotic of dependency.” Mr. Romney warns that government programs “foster passivity and sloth.” Representative Paul Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, requires that staffers read Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged,” in which heroic capitalists struggle against the “moochers” trying to steal their totally deserved wealth, a struggle the heroes win by withdrawing their productive effort and giving interminable speeches.

Many readers of The Times were, therefore, surprised to learn, from an excellent article published last weekend, that the regions of America most hooked on Mr. Santorum’s narcotic — the regions in which government programs account for the largest share of personal income — are precisely the regions electing those severe conservatives. Wasn’t Red America supposed to be the land of traditional values, where people don’t eat Thai food and don’t rely on handouts?

The article made its case with maps showing the distribution of dependency, but you get the same story from a more formal comparison. Aaron Carroll of Indiana University tells us that in 2010, residents of the 10 states Gallup ranks as “most conservative” received 21.2 percent of their income in government transfers, while the number for the 10 most liberal states was only 17.1 percent.

Now, there’s no mystery about red-state reliance on government programs. These states are relatively poor, which means both that people have fewer sources of income other than safety-net programs and that more of them qualify for “means-tested” programs such as Medicaid.
By the way, the same logic explains why there has been a jump in dependency since 2008. Contrary to what Mr. Santorum and Mr. Romney suggest, Mr. Obama has not radically expanded the safety net. Rather, the dire state of the economy has reduced incomes and made more people eligible for benefits, especially unemployment benefits. Basically, the safety net is the same, but more people are falling into it.

But why do regions that rely on the safety net elect politicians who want to tear it down? I’ve seen three main explanations.
First, there is Thomas Frank’s thesis in his book “What’s the Matter With Kansas?”: working-class Americans are induced to vote against their own interests by the G.O.P.’s exploitation of social issues. And it’s true that, for example, Americans who regularly attend church are much more likely to vote Republican, at any given level of income, than those who don’t.


Still, as Columbia University’s Andrew Gelman points out, the really striking red-blue voting divide is among the affluent: High-income residents of red states are overwhelmingly Republican; high-income residents of blue states only mildly more Republican than their poorer neighbors. Like Mr. Frank, Mr. Gelman invokes social issues, but in the opposite direction. Affluent voters in the Northeast tend to be social liberals who would benefit from tax cuts but are repelled by things like the G.O.P.’s war on contraception.

Finally, Cornell University’s Suzanne Mettler points out that many beneficiaries of government programs seem confused about their own place in the system. She tells us that 44 percent of Social Security recipients, 43 percent of those receiving unemployment benefits, and 40 percent of those on Medicare say that they “have not used a government program.”

Presumably, then, voters imagine that pledges to slash government spending mean cutting programs for the idle poor, not things they themselves count on. And this is a confusion politicians deliberately encourage. For example, when Mr. Romney responded to the new Obama budget, he condemned Mr. Obama for not taking on entitlement spending — and, in the very next breath, attacked him for cutting Medicare.

The truth, of course, is that the vast bulk of entitlement spending goes to the elderly, the disabled, and working families, so any significant cuts would have to fall largely on people who believe that they don’t use any government program.

The message I take from all this is that pundits who describe America as a fundamentally conservative country are wrong. Yes, voters sent some severe conservatives to Washington. But those voters would be both shocked and angry if such politicians actually imposed their small-government agenda.



and some more uncomfortable facts.... who exactly are the sponges???? perhaps I should whine my union job paid so much I had to subsidize all those idiots who hate unions and work for 15 dollars an hr.
quote:

what explains the distribution of federal taxing and spending? As you can see from the map, states that get the "worst deal"—that is, have the lowest ratio of federal spending to taxes paid—are generally high-income states either on the coasts or with robust urban areas (such as Illinois and Minnesota). Perhaps not coincidentally, these "donor" states also tend to vote for Democrat candidates in national elections. Similarly, many states that get the "best deal" are lower-income states in the mid-west and south with expansive rural areas that tend to vote Republican.

News reports commonly interpret this to mean that "red state" lawmakers are more successful at bringing home federal spending than "blue state" lawmakers. It's often suggested that the way to correct this imbalance is for "blue state" lawmakers to step up efforts to capture additional spending for their states, and for "red state" lawmakers to pare back their voracious appetite for ever-growing pork-barrel spending.

This interpretation may be appealing, but it's probably wrong. The much more likely factor driving the persistent imbalance between federal taxing and spending isn't the relative ability of lawmakers to "bring home the bacon," but is the fact that higher income states bear a larger fraction of the federal tax burden—an imbalance that is sharply amplified by the progressive structure of the federal income tax.

For whatever reason, so-called "blue states" tend to be high-income areas that pay the vast majority of federal taxes. Some 84 percent of federal individual income taxes—which account for over 40 percent of federal revenue—are paid by the those in the top 25 percent of the income distribution. The majority of these taxpayers live in wealthy, urban, politically "blue" areas like New York, California, and Massachusetts.

Even if federal spending were equal in all states, wealthy states would still send substantially more federal tax dollars to Washington than they received in spending, simply because they earn a majority of the nation's income. This disparity is greatly magnified by the progressive rate structure of the federal income tax, which taxes higher income states more heavily than low-income states, regardless of the level of spending received.

Still think the problem is not enough federal spending in "donor states"? Consider the table below. In 2004 federal discretionary spending was about $895 billion. How much would the largest "donor states" have had to receive in federal spending to boost their spending-taxing ratio to New Mexico's 2.0, the biggest "beneficiary state" that year?

As the table makes clear, far more than is realistically possible. California alone would need to receive more than half of the nation's discretionary spending. The lesson? The distribution of federal taxing and spending is mostly driven by tax burdens, not the ability of lawmakers to divert spending to their home states

84 percent of federal taxes come form liberal states....who are the ones on the dole? What are the demographics of the top 10 subsiidized states and when they vote republican do they realize the economic armagedon they are seeking? http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1397.html
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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 5:03:32 PM   
kalikshama


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study says Paul Krugman is top prognosticator

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 6:02:57 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

By PAUL KRUGMAN



Krugman = LIAR
 


.....

In Krugman Goes Around the Bend, I pointed out the absurdity of Krugman’s equating a group of country music fans destroying their own copies of Dixie Chicks CDs to Kristallnacht.

In
The Paul Krugman Truth Squad, Paul linked to a post by Donald Luskin that showed that Krugman had dishonestly attacked the Bush tax cuts by comparing a single year’s salary in a newly-created job against the ten-year cost of the tax cuts that created that job.

In
Krugman the Barbarian, I critiqued Krugman’s attack on Arnold Schwarzenegger, in which Krugman asserted that California’s taxes are “now probably below average.” Probably? He evidently was too lazy to look up the data–laziness is a frequent issue with Krugman–which showed that Californians then had the 8th-highest tax burden of the 50 states.

In
Poor Paul Krugman, I noted that, contrary to Krugman’s characterization of Wesley Clark’s views–Clark was Krugman’s candidate of the moment–Clark had testified under oath that Saddam Hussein “has chemical and biological weapons.”

In
Krugman On Civility, I ridiculed Krugman’s claim that the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 caused Osama bin Laden’s escape at Tora Bora in December 2001.

In
Krugman Descends Further, I noted that, while Krugman had repeatedly criticized Republicans for being “uncivil,” the U.K. cover of his book The Great Unraveling depicted President Bush as Frankenstein’s monster, and Dick Cheney as Hitler. (Some things never change, do they?)

In
Paul Krugman’s Credibility Recession, I showed that Krugman’s claims about current unemployment data were false. This was another case of Krugman making blithe (but fictitious) assertions about the unemployment numbers, assuming that no one would take the trouble to look them up.

In
That Was Then, This Is Now, I pointed out that Krugman had written disapprovingly about Enron without disclosing that he was a paid Enron adviser who, when he was cashing Enron’s checks, did nothing about the supposed abuses that were the subject of his column.

In
Ducks In A Barrel, we linked to a Donald Luskin column that showed how Krugman had misrepresented economic data to mislead his readers with respect to the Reagan administration’s record on taxes and the economy.

In
Paul Krugman, Around the Bend, I called Krugman on his false statements about Florida’s Governor Jeb Bush.

In
Krugmania, I pointed out that Krugman’s hysterical claim that President Bush stole the 2004 election in Ohio was based on false statements of fact that were easily demolished–if, that is, one actually does research instead of parroting goofy left-wing blogs, as Krugman so often does.

In
Krugmania, Continued, I demonstrated that Krugman lied–once again, uncritically repeating a baseless claim on a left-wing blog–with respect to the Navy’s performance in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

In
Deja Vu, I exposed another example of Krugman’s misleading characterization of economic data to draw a conclusion that was the opposite of the truth.

In
Krugman Flails Wildly, Misses, I cataloged falsehoods in a Krugman column about Social Security.

In
Krugman vs. Krugman, I pointed out that Krugman denounced, in his column, the idea that extending unemployment benefits can prolong unemployment as a “bizarre point of view,” while in fact his own textbook, Macroeconomics, makes precisely that point.

In
Krugman Embarrasses Himself, Again, I criticized Krugman for fabricating a quote that he attributed to Newt Gingrich, which led to a red-faced correction in the Times.

In
Sun Rises in East; Krugman Makes Fool of Himself, I ridiculed Krugman’s criticism of Republicans for using “eliminationist rhetoric,” i.e.–I’m not kidding!–”Fire Nancy Pelosi,” when Krugman himself wrote, to take just one of many examples: “A message to progressives: By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy.”

In
Paul Krugman, Buffoon, I criticized Krugman for blaming Michele Bachmann for Jared Loughner’s murders, based on a false account of what Michele said in an interview with me.

In
Paul Krugman, Punch Line, we posted a video of a room full of people bursting out in laughter when they learn that Krugman is the source for a liberal’s crackpot claim.

In
Iowahawk vs. Krugman, we linked to Iowahawk’s dissection of yet another attempt by Krugman to lie with statistics, this time on education.

In
Liberals: Wrong Again, Do They Care? I ripped Krugman’s baseless claim, which turned out to be entirely false, that Koch Industries stood to benefit from the sale of a handful of small, antiquated power plants in Wisconsin. This was one of countless examples of where Krugman repeated outlandish claims made on far-left web sites as though they were Gospel, without doing any investigation to determine whether they had merit, or, as in this case, were obvious fantasies.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/03/why-paul-krugman-doesnt-like-us-and-vice-versa.php

 
 


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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 6:45:18 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
Appeal To False Authority:
Great false arguments but that's what they are. Attacking Krugman does not change the facts. That's not you a lawyer would never make the specious arguments and false arugements you do they are trained how to make a case you just switch false arguments. You're no lawyer and Hindracker is no nobel prize winning economist Now, I guess since you had no challenges to the facts we can just move along and agree you think an attack on a person is an arguement

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 6:47:35 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Typical Liberal Denial of Facts... SHOCKING!!!



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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 6:51:59 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

 
Typical Liberal Denial of Facts... SHOCKING!!!




You haven't denied any of the facts in the OP's post with anything factual. None. All you've done is engaged in ad hominem attack. And now you claim the Liberals are denying the facts. Ahem, I think you have this backwards.


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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 7:38:21 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You haven't denied any of the facts in the OP's post...



Because there are no fucking "facts" in the OP -- just Krugman's usual leaps-in-lies to extrapolate "X" from "Y" to fit his idiotic Looney-Lib views.

Example:  "Aaron Carroll of Indiana University tells us that in 2010, residents of the 10 states Gallup ranks as “most conservative” received 21.2 percent of their income in government transfers, while the number for the 10 most liberal states was only 17.1 percent."

Umm... and this proves Conservatives favor wealth distribution, how?!!  It doesn't.  Just more of Krugman's idiot rantings.  Moreover, what is the definition of "Government Transfers" that's being used?!!  Are they comparing apples to apples (e.g., same family size, education, etc.), or apples and oranges?!!  TWISTING BLIND STATISTICS FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES IS COMMON PRACTICE -- on both sides. 

Krugman is a repeatedly proven LIAR, and as such, has ZERO credibility.  The OP is bullshit because the author is a piece-of-shit LIAR.



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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/3/2012 7:49:40 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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See... just as I stated -- typical Liberal denial of facts... SHOCKING!!! 

Krugman is a PROVEN LIAR, and has offered ZERO actual proof to support his idiot rantings -- just BLIND STATISTICS that amount to nothing more than a false platform for him to spew his moronic OPINIONS, as that's all they are. 



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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:20:21 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
See... just as I stated -- typical Liberal denial of facts... SHOCKING!!! 

Krugman is a PROVEN LIAR, and has offered ZERO actual proof to support his idiot rantings -- just BLIND STATISTICS that amount to nothing more than a false platform for him to spew his moronic OPINIONS, as that's all they are. 


How about instead of shoveling your blatant and quite mindless, conservative crap, you actually get around to showing us how the facts presented in the OP are really lies? We'll want your evidence from unbias sources. Until you can do so, I'll take Mr. Krugman's word over yours.


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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:35:43 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

 
Typical Liberal Denial of Facts... SHOCKING!!!



what facts...ok Kruggmann is a proven lair..fine now tell me what in thta aticle is a lie... Do you even understand the meaning of a falliocious argument?

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:36:50 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You haven't denied any of the facts in the OP's post...



Because there are no fucking "facts" in the OP -- just Krugman's usual leaps-in-lies to extrapolate "X" from "Y" to fit his idiotic Looney-Lib views.

Example:  "Aaron Carroll of Indiana University tells us that in 2010, residents of the 10 states Gallup ranks as “most conservative” received 21.2 percent of their income in government transfers, while the number for the 10 most liberal states was only 17.1 percent."

Umm... and this proves Conservatives favor wealth distribution, how?!!  It doesn't.  Just more of Krugman's idiot rantings.  Moreover, what is the definition of "Government Transfers" that's being used?!!  Are they comparing apples to apples (e.g., same family size, education, etc.), or apples and oranges?!!  TWISTING BLIND STATISTICS FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES IS COMMON PRACTICE -- on both sides. 

Krugman is a repeatedly proven LIAR, and as such, has ZERO credibility.  The OP is bullshit because the author is a piece-of-shit LIAR.



Again ty for the perfect example of an ad hominem argument

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:43:47 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How about instead of shoveling your blatant and quite mindless, conservative crap, you actually get around to showing us how the facts presented in the OP are really lies? We'll want your evidence from unbias sources. Until you can do so, I'll take Mr. Krugman's word over yours.

You make a good point, but it bears a more general application. It's seems to me not at all untypical for people to blow something off solely because it comes from a [wrong]-wing or pro/anti-[whatever] source.

K.

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:44:20 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You haven't denied any of the facts in the OP's post...



Because there are no fucking "facts" in the OP -- just Krugman's usual leaps-in-lies to extrapolate "X" from "Y" to fit his idiotic Looney-Lib views.

Example:  "Aaron Carroll of Indiana University tells us that in 2010, residents of the 10 states Gallup ranks as “most conservative” received 21.2 percent of their income in government transfers, while the number for the 10 most liberal states was only 17.1 percent."

Umm... and this proves Conservatives favor wealth distribution, how?!!  It doesn't.  Just more of Krugman's idiot rantings.  Moreover, what is the definition of "Government Transfers" that's being used?!!  Are they comparing apples to apples (e.g., same family size, education, etc.), or apples and oranges?!!  TWISTING BLIND STATISTICS FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES IS COMMON PRACTICE -- on both sides. 

Krugman is a repeatedly proven LIAR, and as such, has ZERO credibility.  The OP is bullshit because the author is a piece-of-shit LIAR.


Tax foundation is hardly liberal. tax dollars paid vs federal spending recoived whats so fucking hard to understand? Where does family size comeinto it???????? It's actually a no brainer of course high wage states subsidize poor ones and conservative ones are not high wage thye are , poor poor. No facts need tquisting it's per capita income

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 3:47:32 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How about instead of shoveling your blatant and quite mindless, conservative crap, you actually get around to showing us how the facts presented in the OP are really lies? We'll want your evidence from unbias sources. Until you can do so, I'll take Mr. Krugman's word over yours.

You make a good point, but it bears a more general application. It's seems to me not at all untypical for people to blow something off solely because it comes from a [wrong]-wing or pro/anti-[whatever] source.

K.


agreed which is why i included the tax foundation and the ny times not talking points and daily kod. Krugmann is held to a standard by the times bhe wouldnt be held to if writing on those sites. I'd never quote powerline or Kods to make a point they are so partisan most ofthe arguments are made with omission and distortion. Its important to get informatuion from reasonably wid range of sources but also nt from known unrelaibles like Kos WND talking points or powerline

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 4:12:13 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

Krugmann is held to a standard by the times bhe wouldnt be held to if writing on those sites. I'd never quote powerline or Kods to make a point they are so partisan most ofthe arguments are made with omission and distortion.

Well I don't know about that "standard" to which you say the NY Times holds its columnists...

Op-Ed columnist Paul Krugman has the disturbing habit of shaping, slicing and selectively citing numbers in a fashion that pleases his acolytes but leaves him open to substantive assaults. ~Daniel Okrent, former Public Editor, NY Times

Of course, that doesn't say anything about the facts (sliced or otherwise) in the current piece, but it does speak to the wisdom of taking Krugman at face value. On the other hand, even authors and sites with a bias sometimes get it right. You just have to do a bit of homework to find out. I haven't in this case, so I've nothing to say about it.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/4/2012 4:15:22 AM >

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 5:01:48 AM   
kalikshama


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Krugman won a Nobel Prize for Economics.

John Hinderaker won "Best Meltdown" Award of 2005 for this:

You dumb shit, he didn't get access using a fake name, he used his real name. You lefties' concern for White House security is really touching, but you know what, you stupid asshole, I think the Secret Service has it covered. Go crawl back into your hole, you stupid left-wing shithead. And don't bother us anymore. You have to have an IQ over 50 to correspond with us. You don't qualify, you stupid shit.

Case closed.




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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 6:00:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

John Hinderaker won "Best Meltdown" Award of 2005 for this:

You dumb shit, he didn't get access using a fake name, he used his real name. You lefties' concern for White House security is really touching, but you know what, you stupid asshole, I think the Secret Service has it covered. Go crawl back into your hole, you stupid left-wing shithead. And don't bother us anymore. You have to have an IQ over 50 to correspond with us. You don't qualify, you stupid shit.


If you can place any reliance on measures such as IQ, this quote struck me as pretty good evidence that its author possesses an IQ of less than 50 ................

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 6:26:10 AM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

Krugmann is held to a standard by the times bhe wouldnt be held to if writing on those sites. I'd never quote powerline or Kods to make a point they are so partisan most ofthe arguments are made with omission and distortion.

Well I don't know about that "standard" to which you say the NY Times holds its columnists...

Op-Ed columnist Paul Krugman has the disturbing habit of shaping, slicing and selectively citing numbers in a fashion that pleases his acolytes but leaves him open to substantive assaults. ~Daniel Okrent, former Public Editor, NY Times

Of course, that doesn't say anything about the facts (sliced or otherwise) in the current piece, but it does speak to the wisdom of taking Krugman at face value. On the other hand, even authors and sites with a bias sometimes get it right. You just have to do a bit of homework to find out. I haven't in this case, so I've nothing to say about it.

K.



a simple google search will verify the facts dozens of numbers. It onlty makes sense states with poorer opulations get more services than those with wealthier ones and per capita income is highest in the blue states and lowest in the red

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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 8:02:03 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Krugman won a Nobel Prize for Economics.

John Hinderaker won "Best Meltdown" Award of 2005 for this:

You dumb shit, he didn't get access using a fake name, he used his real name. You lefties' concern for White House security is really touching, but you know what, you stupid asshole, I think the Secret Service has it covered. Go crawl back into your hole, you stupid left-wing shithead. And don't bother us anymore. You have to have an IQ over 50 to correspond with us. You don't qualify, you stupid shit.

Case closed.





You always come back with the coolest right-on-point images....


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RE: conservative reliance on welath redistribution - 5/4/2012 9:15:04 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Krugman won...



Bill Clinton "won" the Presidency, and fucking LIED too (just like the current Lib-Liar in the White House) -- i.e., big fucking deal that the idiot Krugman "won" anything.



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