New Gun Law Debate

New Gun Law Debate (Full Version)

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SternSkipper -> New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 1:08:16 PM)
It started out a month ago and I was tempted to post about it. But there was considerable turbulence in the NH House over this and the governor VOWED to veto. And the Republican Senator championing this bill claimed that it wouldn't effect any of the recent gun violence in Southern NH in the last 6 months (I believe they are up to 7 cops shot or dead). Course the state trooper I saw on the news earlier this week's professional opinion was that the Senator's remarks were not only incorrect, they were irresponsible. He said that while it may not have any effect at all on the cited situations, it would certainly add dimensions of potential danger to ever traffic stop. He gave the example of a drunk driving stop wherein a person of diminished capacity might try to leverage the situation with a firearm he was legally entitled to have in a car. I agree. I think this is an example where this "smaller government" mentality will probably end up causing way more harm than good. Thankfully, the bill is tabled and can't now be brought back for at least about 6 months. From the sound of it. It will be back. CONCORD, N.H. (AP) -- The Senate is voting Wednesday whether to make permits to carry concealed, loaded guns anyplace where gun possession is legal optional in New Hampshire. Gun owners could still get permits so they could travel to states with reciprocal permit agreements. The bill also would increase from four to five years the length of time a permit is valid. The bill would make it legal to transport unlicensed guns. A Senate amendment proposes allowing people to have guns in their homes and place of business even if they are prohibited from carrying them for other reasons, such as being a felon, which may conflict with federal law. Gov. John Lynch has promised to veto the bill if it reaches his de Read more: http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/north/12007348443617/nh-bill-makes-gun-licenses-optional/#ixzz1u6z7umbd

Hillwilliam -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 2:16:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper . He gave the example of a drunk driving stop wherein a person of diminished capacity might try to leverage the situation with a firearm he was legally entitled to have in a car. Your state trooper is stretching things a bit. Anyone who is intoxicated is not legally entitled to have access to firearms even if they have permits.

truckinslave -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 5:09:16 PM)
It might be of interest to check the law in a neighboring, and perhaps similar, state. Vermont has had no restrictions on concealed carry for at least a decade.

SternSkipper -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 5:19:14 PM)
quote: Your state trooper is stretching things a bit. Anyone who is intoxicated is not legally entitled to have access to firearms even if they have permits. MY state trooper??? He was on the news ... I am just passing on what he said. But to be honest, I think your putting the cart in front of the horse. Cause don't most evenings ending in a DUI start with a sober person who WOULD BE entitled to carry. You might want to spend more time in New Hampshire before that analysis. You tell the granite state folks they can carry, and they're gonna. In your model (which is a good one, were the parties going to abide by the law or more importantly _understand_it_), it fails to take into account stupid fucks who will read it LITERALLY as "I can carry a gun to the right of the driver's seat. Nobody better fuck with me tonight." And that's what the trooper is talking about. I just don't see the rank and file Saturday night DUI guy saying "Gee I'm planning to get plowed, I better not bring the gun". Just my opinion though... maybe it should pass and that we we all see the Republicans were right all along. I live 30 miles away and one thing I will tell you is that there will be profiling out the ass of people with New Hampshire plates at the state line 24/7. Just like they do on Sundays where NH Positions State liquor stores right ON the major highways. Over the years it's cause so much cost to Massachusetts, they've spent the last 10 years or more hammering out how to have Sunday liquor sales. Same thing happens with fireworks i n the summer (the profiling, I mean).

SternSkipper -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 5:45:47 PM)
quote: It might be of interest to check the law in a neighboring, and perhaps similar, state. Vermont has had no restrictions on concealed carry for at least a decade. Sure ... how about Massachusetts? Since I have been in Highschool (70s), there has been a 1yr mandatory sentence for having firearms in a vehicle or to otherwise transport them with out a permitt to do so. And the FID card does not allow any kind of "carry" in the sense we're referring to. Massachusetts has large truly urban cities and Vermont has only one you could even really call a city (burlington) and even that is a stretch. The state is the 2nd least populous state in the US, and it actually covers a lot of square miles in terms of being a New England state. It's a neighboring state alright, but it's the boonies. The state also sports a very low crime rate and historically has a strong identity as a peaceful state. I don't know Maine's laws other than what you can transport through the state with no permit for hunting. But since you brought that up I will definitely look ... thanks.

truckinslave -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/6/2012 6:58:48 PM)
quote: Sure ... how about Massachusetts? Well, okay, but, again, what about Vermont? If the trooper is right- if allowing law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon sans permit is going to endanger the lives of cops and others unduly- why hasn't that already occurred in Vermont? John Lott dealt with all of this (not just neighboring states, but neighboring counties with radically different gun laws) in More Guns, Less Crime. You should give the trooper your copy after you read it [:)]

truckinslave -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/7/2012 4:51:17 AM)
quote: The state is the 2nd least populous state in the US, and it actually covers a lot of square miles in terms of being a New England state. It's a neighboring state alright, but it's the boonies. The state also sports a very low crime rate and historically has a strong identity as a peaceful state. Well, I don't know from "historically", but the US Census Bureau says there are thirty states whose citizens suffer less from violent crime than Mass, so perhaps its crime rate isn't really "very low". State rankings. Vermont, with its total lack of laws concerning concealed carry, is more peaceful than all but 2, ND and Me. PS I wasn't aware of having brought up Maine before this post. The neighboring and similar state I meant was Vermont.

joether -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/7/2012 2:12:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: The state is the 2nd least populous state in the US, and it actually covers a lot of square miles in terms of being a New England state. It's a neighboring state alright, but it's the boonies. The state also sports a very low crime rate and historically has a strong identity as a peaceful state. Well, I don't know from "historically", but the US Census Bureau says there are thirty states whose citizens suffer less from violent crime than Mass, so perhaps its crime rate isn't really "very low". State rankings. Vermont, with its total lack of laws concerning concealed carry, is more peaceful than all but 2, ND and Me. PS I wasn't aware of having brought up Maine before this post. The neighboring and similar state I meant was Vermont. I believe you are getting the wrong facts from the wrong sources. The Census doesnt take care of criminal statistics; that's the role of the FBI. The Census tries to understand how many people live in a given area and why they live there. It doesnt ask people if they have or dont have one or more firearms, or are members of such organizations like the 'Brady Campaign' or the 'NRA'. Using data from both locations in the federal goverment, one could come to conclusion that yes, there are indeed 30 or so states with a population less than that of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. But the reasons for that population not meeting or being the same has little to nothing to do with the rate of crime or firearm ownership/laws. Its seems to be a high correlation between large populations and the perception of higher crime rates than what is reported. I believe you would agree with me if two states had a 6% crime rate, but one was nearly twice the size of the others; folks in the larger state would be more likely to know, seen, be part of, or the one involved in a crime, than those citizens of the smaller state. Likewise, when the local news reports a crime that's 'just down the street' it affects people more than 'this just happened on the other side of the state....'. The first is an example of high population areas while the latter is rather typical in Vermont. If your going to state that firearms, is the sole reason for why low crime rate, and not the size of population, Truckinslave. Than why is Florida not among the safest on the list? It has the much 'demonized', Stand Your Ground, concept? Or Texas? Home to the 'wild, wild, west' were the rule of the gun trumps the rule of law? I feel, in order for your arguement to have merit, it needs quite a bit more supporting material that firearms, and not, population size have a greater effect on the rate of crime and the perception of that crime taking place among the population.

lovmuffin -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/7/2012 4:47:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Than why is Florida not among the safest on the list? It has the much 'demonized', Stand Your Ground, concept? I'm not sure to what extent gang activity has to do with it but I'm sure it does to a point. The biggest reason I think is there are many indigents due to the fact we don't get any snow and very little cold weather. In many places ya got-ta watch your back and, your stuff. If you leave a bike unlocked, even if you're in sight of it, some opportunistic asshole could come along and grab it and ride it off before you can do anything about it. I know 2 first hand accounts of that exact situation. One time my associate was riding with me when we stopped at a convenience store. She knew I was anal about locking doors but on this occasion she didn't lock her side and I didn't check like I should have. I just assumed she she would remember. I was suspicious of this guy when he walked out of the store and his buddy tried to start up a conversation with me. I watched the guy just inside the door only 10-15 feet away thinking go ahead and try something. To my surprise I saw my unlocked door open but couldn't get out there fast enough before he hopped into his running car and high tailed it out of the parking lot in his piece of shit even for a junk car, with my associates purse. When I turned around the other guy was gone. These assholes are quick.

thompsonx -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/7/2012 5:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Sure ... how about Massachusetts? Well, okay, but, again, what about Vermont? If the trooper is right- if allowing law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon sans permit is going to endanger the lives of cops and others unduly- why hasn't that already occurred in Vermont? John Lott dealt with all of this (not just neighboring states, but neighboring counties with radically different gun laws) in More Guns, Less Crime. You should give the trooper your copy after you read it [:)] In texas a resident is allowed to resist an unlawful arrest with deadly force. Do more cops in texas get shot than anyplace else?

Musicmystery -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/7/2012 7:13:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper . He gave the example of a drunk driving stop wherein a person of diminished capacity might try to leverage the situation with a firearm he was legally entitled to have in a car. Your state trooper is stretching things a bit. Anyone who is intoxicated is not legally entitled to have access to firearms even if they have permits. As they're not entitled to drive a car in that state either, rather begs the question.

truckinslave -> RE: New Gun Law Debate (5/8/2012 7:52:05 AM)
quote: The Census doesnt take care of criminal statistics; The site linked was in fact from the Census Bureau. They not only count, they correlate data from multiple sources. quote: one could come to conclusion that yes, there are indeed 30 or so states with a population less than that of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts The fact- not the "conclusion", the fact- is that thirty states have a lower rates of violent crime than Mass. that is independent of population size. Or density. quote: Its seems to be a high correlation between large populations and the perception of higher crime rates than what is reported. I believe you would agree with me if two states had a 6% crime rate, but one was nearly twice the size of the others; folks in the larger state would be more likely to know, seen, be part of, or the one involved in a crime, than those citizens of the smaller state. Likewise, when the local news reports a crime that's 'just down the street' it affects people more than 'this just happened on the other side of the state....'. The first is an example of high population areas while the latter is rather typical in Vermont. I'm not sure due to what seems to be an English-as-a-second-language issue, but I believe you are here confusing geographical size with population density. Both seem to be irrelevant to the issue at hand.

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