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RE: France - 5/7/2012 1:44:21 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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I think one has to be careful comparing Greece to France. In Greece, part of what has landed them into trouble, is that people do not pay their taxes. You cannot have an effective government and maintain infrastructure and government programs unless people support the system through tax dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/business/global/greece-urged-by-european-official-to-do-more.html

France does have tax-evasion by the wealthy (much the same way that we do here), but the rank and file of French citizens shoulder more of their tax burden than the Greek.

So while there are strains on both economies, I think the details of why each country is facing difficulty are quite different, and therefore, what solutions might work might be different, too.

In the U.S., the one time in our history we faced the prospect of true economic hardship (post 1929), our government did NOT respond with austerity measures, but responded with what can only be termed social safety net programs - in other words the government SPENT more money in order to keep the economy going. Or, the government utilized policies that are more socialist in nature.

So I think the French made the right decision. They are in a downturn, and careful thinking about HOW MUCH the government spends and on WHAT, can make a difference. We know this in America from our own history.

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RE: France - 5/7/2012 1:55:09 PM   
jlf1961


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So you are saying that if a company like Burlington Lumber purchases a few thousand acres of forest to harvest that wood, they should not have the right to that resource? They should have to pay every citizen in the US a share of the profits off land that they own?


If an oil company buys the lease rights to a parcel of land to drill on that land that they should not be allowed access to that resource without paying every citizen in the US?

That is not even socialism, that sounds a whole lot like communism.

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RE: France - 5/7/2012 2:04:49 PM   
mnottertail


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Nope, thats capitalism, right out of the books, we bought it, we paid for it, we own it.   Land leased from the federal government should run at fair market value for its usage, and I am ok with sending the check to uncle sam.


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RE: France - 5/7/2012 2:26:29 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

Well, Australia are socialist wannabe's and the news of this new guy wiped $27 billion of the Australia stock exchange.

*shrug*


The Stock Exchange here may gone through a 'correction'on paper but no one lost a single cent. Wages and prices are exactly the same as they were. No one is more indebted or less indebted.

Here, the Stock Exchange is a casino for financial institutions and the rich. Day-to-day changes in its "value" are paper gains and losses, not real gains and losses - they have little or no effect on the way people live.

So I don't understand the relevance of whatever point it is you are trying to make.

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RE: France - 5/7/2012 2:37:18 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
The first problem for the richies is that they don't stay rich if people are too poor to buy their goods. This finally obtruded onto the consciousnesses of even the greediest and most selfish of those who lived during the Great Depression. While it'd be useful to learn the lesson of what happens when a government spends too much, it'd also be useful to remember (or relearn) the lesson of that episode in the early twentieth century.

well,.. not really.. I hate to tell ya.. and this recession isnt even over yet but for the rich people,.. "its like the recession never happened"

"Britain's wealthiest residents have recouped their losses from the financial crisis and are now just short of the record registered before the 2008 financial crash."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/08/rich-list-recession-billionaires

eta- you dont think like a rich person, you think recession means everyone loses,.. but rich people know different.. rich people can make money in a down market even faster and even more than in an up market.. And the rich people have been buying companies and real estate at firesale prices.. the ones that buy good value wont have all that long to wait to see mucho gains..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 5/7/2012 2:44:11 PM >


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RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:13:19 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
The first problem for the richies is that they don't stay rich if people are too poor to buy their goods. This finally obtruded onto the consciousnesses of even the greediest and most selfish of those who lived during the Great Depression. While it'd be useful to learn the lesson of what happens when a government spends too much, it'd also be useful to remember (or relearn) the lesson of that episode in the early twentieth century.

well,.. not really.. I hate to tell ya.. and this recession isnt even over yet but for the rich people,.. "its like the recession never happened"

"Britain's wealthiest residents have recouped their losses from the financial crisis and are now just short of the record registered before the 2008 financial crash."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/08/rich-list-recession-billionaires

eta- you dont think like a rich person, you think recession means everyone loses,.. but rich people know different.. rich people can make money in a down market even faster and even more than in an up market.. And the rich people have been buying companies and real estate at firesale prices.. the ones that buy good value wont have all that long to wait to see mucho gains..


They can, and will often, make a tidy profit . . . right to the edge of the cliff. Then everything tips over. It isn't in the (non-enlightened) self interest of any given big player to hold the entire machine back from that. One of the reasons that social democracy was invented . . . .

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/7/2012 3:19:11 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:34:51 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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Joined: 5/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion




The rich are rich because the're not stupid.

Actually that statement is true in Europe here the rich are rich mostly because they were born rich. ..... Most American and Canadian children of middle class parents don’t have their life chances noticeably determined by their family background.







If I were a young American born to top-earning parents I would want them to stay put: these high achievers are not only rich but also well connected and well informed. They can give me the education, health care, housing and other investments that would set me on a path to attend some of the best colleges in the world. I would enter a labor market that rewards my education to a much greater degree than in Canada, and a tax system that lets me keep more of my earnings.

If I were a child born in the top 10 percent, my odds of staying in the top 10 percent as an adult would be better than 1 in 4. I’d have a better than 50 percent chance of staying in the top third. In Canada, only 1 in 7 kids born to top-earning parents become top-earning adults, and almost 10 percent fall to the very bottom, something that happens to only 3 percent of rich American children.

A rich kid does well in the U.S., but a poor kid does not.

If I were born to parents in the bottom 10 percent, I would rather they were raising me in Canada. Being in the bottom 10 percent would mean less hardship: my family income would be greater; I would be more likely to be living with both of my biological parents; I would be visiting a doctor regularly; and I would spend more time with my parents, particularly my mother during my infancy as she would have almost one year of paid parental leave.

My physical and mental well-being, general happiness and cognitive development would be noticeably superior even at a very young age.

My early education would be of higher quality because it is funded through progressive income taxes, not local property taxes. I would have access to a good college or technical training at relatively affordable tuition fees of $5,000 to $10,000 a year.
If my parents lived in the U.S., I would have more than a 1 in 5 chance of being stuck in the bottom 10 percent of the earnings distribution and a 50 percent chance of staying in the bottom third. In Canada I’d be less likely to remain in the bottom, and would have a 50 percent chance of reaching the top half. In short, the Canadian playing field is more level than the American, and my chances of moving into the middle class would be higher.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:39:02 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
The first problem for the richies is that they don't stay rich if people are too poor to buy their goods. This finally obtruded onto the consciousnesses of even the greediest and most selfish of those who lived during the Great Depression. While it'd be useful to learn the lesson of what happens when a government spends too much, it'd also be useful to remember (or relearn) the lesson of that episode in the early twentieth century.

well,.. not really.. I hate to tell ya.. and this recession isnt even over yet but for the rich people,.. "its like the recession never happened"

"Britain's wealthiest residents have recouped their losses from the financial crisis and are now just short of the record registered before the 2008 financial crash."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/08/rich-list-recession-billionaires

eta- you dont think like a rich person, you think recession means everyone loses,.. but rich people know different.. rich people can make money in a down market even faster and even more than in an up market.. And the rich people have been buying companies and real estate at firesale prices.. the ones that buy good value wont have all that long to wait to see mucho gains..


They can, and will often, make a tidy profit . . . right to the edge of the cliff. Then everything tips over. It isn't in the (non-enlightened) self interest of any given big player to hold the entire machine back from that. One of the reasons that social democracy was invented . . . .

And yet, more people became millionaires in the US during and in the aftermath of the Great Depression than any other time..

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:42:21 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

So you are saying that if a company like Burlington Lumber purchases a few thousand acres of forest to harvest that wood, they should not have the right to that resource? They should have to pay every citizen in the US a share of the profits off land that they own?


If an oil company buys the lease rights to a parcel of land to drill on that land that they should not be allowed access to that resource without paying every citizen in the US?

That is not even socialism, that sounds a whole lot like communism.

they are called royalties and ,it is sop. Then thing is we still basically goift the resources when we lease the rights. it's heling those who don't need help. they pay the goverment which acts as out agent. zOnly in conservative Alaska are there direct payments to citizens. an uneeded handout to the wealth. Cheap So we charge less than value then they cry they are overtaxed on the earnings inflated by our largesse

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:47:04 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


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Joined: 5/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

If France goes the way of Greece, will you guys finally admit progressive policies don't work? I'll admit they work, if France figures it out in time.

gee if we go the way of Greece will you admit there comes a point where someone actually has to pay for goverment? Unlike Greece we have extremely low taxes if out taxes were 25 percent higher the avg for the industrial world we'd have no deficit

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: France - 5/7/2012 3:58:22 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I am a democrat and a moderate liberal. I will admit that I agree with the idea of universal health care, however, nobody has come up with a good way to fund such a program. Free college tuition is a good idea on paper, but someone explain to me how you are going to pay for it.



How about raising the taxes on our upper clases to the reagan era rates and using that money to give pell grants to qualified needy students so we can unleash their economic potential rather than having the cash be used to invest in china and Junior by virtue ofhis birth protected from having to prove his merit

the french health care system costs 1/3 as much and delivers better results across the board. In fact so does the canadian sytem and so does the british system.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: France - 5/7/2012 4:00:22 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
The first problem for the richies is that they don't stay rich if people are too poor to buy their goods. This finally obtruded onto the consciousnesses of even the greediest and most selfish of those who lived during the Great Depression. While it'd be useful to learn the lesson of what happens when a government spends too much, it'd also be useful to remember (or relearn) the lesson of that episode in the early twentieth century.

well,.. not really.. I hate to tell ya.. and this recession isnt even over yet but for the rich people,.. "its like the recession never happened"

"Britain's wealthiest residents have recouped their losses from the financial crisis and are now just short of the record registered before the 2008 financial crash."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/08/rich-list-recession-billionaires

eta- you dont think like a rich person, you think recession means everyone loses,.. but rich people know different.. rich people can make money in a down market even faster and even more than in an up market.. And the rich people have been buying companies and real estate at firesale prices.. the ones that buy good value wont have all that long to wait to see mucho gains..


They can, and will often, make a tidy profit . . . right to the edge of the cliff. Then everything tips over. It isn't in the (non-enlightened) self interest of any given big player to hold the entire machine back from that. One of the reasons that social democracy was invented . . . .

And yet, more people became millionaires in the US during and in the aftermath of the Great Depression than any other time..

yes and nowadays the most likely shared trait of the well off is being born well off. In europe merit dictates where you go in life here it's birth

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: France - 5/7/2012 4:20:30 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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Australian stockmarket tumbles as miners, oil companies face sell-off

The stockmarket put in its worst one-day performance in nearly five months today, as US jobs data and European elections rattled confidence.

The benchmark S&P/ASX 200 index tumbled 2.2 per cent to 4301.30, a level not seen since April 17, as miners and oil companies took the brunt of the selling.

It was the worst one-day performance for the market since December 19, 2011, when shares dropped 2.4 per cent in a day.

The Australian dollar fell to $US1.0149, from $US1.0187 in late North American trading on Friday.

Asian markets also took a beating as Japan’s Nikkei Stock Average ended the day down 2.8 per cent, while US stock futures pointed to another day of sharp losses on Wall Street.

Stocks fell heavily in the US on Friday after just 115,000 jobs were added to the US economy last month, far below the 163,000 job additions that had been penciled in by economists.

Doubts about the strength of the US economy were compounded by weekend election results in Europe, said Shane Oliver, head of investment strategy at AMP Capital.

"The (poll) results weren’t surprising but they just add to the uncertainty,” he said.

In France, Nicolas Sarkozy was ousted as president by socialist Francois Hollande, who has indicated that he wants to renegotiate Europe’s fiscal compact, which aims to impose tough budget rules for the continent.

In Greece, exit polls indicated that mainstream New Democracy party and the Pasok party - both supporters of the country’s second bailout - took a drubbing. Should those parties fail to reach the 151 parliamentary seats needed to form a coalition, then Greece could reject the hard-fought aid package.

"A government in support of the new adjustment program cannot be taken for granted. We believe Greece's survival in the Eurozone could be at risk, with negative implications for the still-fragile periphery,"said Athanasios Vamvakidis, strategist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch.

While concerns about Greece are more immediate, given that the country is close to the brink, France is probably a bigger concern in the longer term, said Mr Oliver.

“Investors are worried because the last time the French elected a socialist government, the sharemarket fell 30 per cent,” said Mr Oliver, referring to 1981, when Francois Mitterrand came to power.

Meanwhile, US jobs data stoked fresh fears that the country was heading for a double-dip recession, Mr Oliver said. “It’s like deja vu,” he said, referring to 2011, when stocks started the year with enthusiasm but gains then fell away as investors parsed economic data.

Australia's oil and mining sectors each slumped more than 3 per cent as oil traded around multi-month lows in Asian electronic trading hours and other commodity futures also came under pressure amid a stronger US dollar.

Within the mining sector, BHP Billiton dropped 4.1 per cent and Rio Tinto was down 4.5 per cent. Energy-sector companies trading lower included Santos, down 4.4 per cent, and Woodside, down 2.5 per cent.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: France - 5/7/2012 4:51:12 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

So you are saying that if a company like Burlington Lumber purchases a few thousand acres of forest to harvest that wood, they should not have the right to that resource? They should have to pay every citizen in the US a share of the profits off land that they own?


That is a mischaracterazation of my post. Pleae read what I said.


quote:

If an oil company buys the lease rights to a parcel of land to drill on that land that they should not be allowed access to that resource without paying every citizen in the US?


Does not the government hold all of that land and it's resoures in trust for the american people? Should not the lease payment reflect a fair compensation to the american people for their asset?
Since the u.s. govt is the trustee for that land and it's resources might they just as well hire a drilling co. to develop the wells and then sell that product on the open market and put the proceeds into the u.s. treasury?
Is that communism or is that fuduciary responsibility? What right has the government to sell to private enterprise that which is the property of the citizens of the u.s.? By your line of reasoning the govt could lease /sell the national parks to some private concern who could then raise the price of access so that only the most wealthy could gain entry.


quote:

That is not even socialism, that sounds a whole lot like communism.


It is neither.
It is simple logic
.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: France - 5/7/2012 4:51:21 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes and nowadays the most likely shared trait of the well off is being born well off. In europe merit dictates where you go in life here it's birth

well,.. i think kids being born rich is the biggest risk to the wealthy.. younger generations tend not to take the same care to hold and grow it.. they tend to want to squander it.. party it away, snort it up their noses and take bad risks when "investing".. Which imo could explain why Bill Gates & Buffett and other richies like them are just giving their wealth to charity, rather than let their kids & grand kids blow their billions..

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: France - 5/7/2012 4:58:19 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Australian stockmarket tumbles as miners, oil companies face sell-off

The stockmarket put in its worst one-day performance in nearly five months today, as US jobs data and European elections rattled confidence.

The benchmark S&P/ASX 200 index tumbled 2.2 per cent to 4301.30, a level not seen since April 17, as miners and oil companies took the brunt of the selling.

It was the worst one-day performance for the market since December 19, 2011, when shares dropped 2.4 per cent in a day.

The Australian dollar fell to $US1.0149, from $US1.0187 in late North American trading on Friday.

Asian markets also took a beating as Japan’s Nikkei Stock Average ended the day down 2.8 per cent, while US stock futures pointed to another day of sharp losses on Wall Street.

Stocks fell heavily in the US on Friday after just 115,000 jobs were added to the US economy last month, far below the 163,000 job additions that had been penciled in by economists.

Doubts about the strength of the US economy were compounded by weekend election results in Europe, said Shane Oliver, head of investment strategy at AMP Capital.

"The (poll) results weren’t surprising but they just add to the uncertainty,” he said.

In France, Nicolas Sarkozy was ousted as president by socialist Francois Hollande, who has indicated that he wants to renegotiate Europe’s fiscal compact, which aims to impose tough budget rules for the continent.

In Greece, exit polls indicated that mainstream New Democracy party and the Pasok party - both supporters of the country’s second bailout - took a drubbing. Should those parties fail to reach the 151 parliamentary seats needed to form a coalition, then Greece could reject the hard-fought aid package.

"A government in support of the new adjustment program cannot be taken for granted. We believe Greece's survival in the Eurozone could be at risk, with negative implications for the still-fragile periphery,"said Athanasios Vamvakidis, strategist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch.

While concerns about Greece are more immediate, given that the country is close to the brink, France is probably a bigger concern in the longer term, said Mr Oliver.

“Investors are worried because the last time the French elected a socialist government, the sharemarket fell 30 per cent,” said Mr Oliver, referring to 1981, when Francois Mitterrand came to power.

Meanwhile, US jobs data stoked fresh fears that the country was heading for a double-dip recession, Mr Oliver said. “It’s like deja vu,” he said, referring to 2011, when stocks started the year with enthusiasm but gains then fell away as investors parsed economic data.

Australia's oil and mining sectors each slumped more than 3 per cent as oil traded around multi-month lows in Asian electronic trading hours and other commodity futures also came under pressure amid a stronger US dollar.

Within the mining sector, BHP Billiton dropped 4.1 per cent and Rio Tinto was down 4.5 per cent. Energy-sector companies trading lower included Santos, down 4.4 per cent, and Woodside, down 2.5 per cent.



Since the stock market is nothing but a gambling casino why would any sane person give a fuck about who made or lost money there or what the cause was?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: France - 5/7/2012 5:03:25 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes and nowadays the most likely shared trait of the well off is being born well off. In europe merit dictates where you go in life here it's birth

well,.. i think kids being born rich is the biggest risk to the wealthy.. younger generations tend not to take the same care to hold and grow it.. they tend to want to squander it.. party it away, snort it up their noses and take bad risks when "investing".. Which imo could explain why Bill Gates & Buffett and other richies like them are just giving their wealth to charity, rather than let their kids & grand kids blow their billions..



The "richies" you are refering to are not rich in any sense of the word. How many kennedy's,rockafellas,duponts,fords,firestones,folgers etc fit your characterazation of the rich. Their welth is institutionalized which is what gates,buffet and walton have done with their wealth. A "charatible foundation" is just a scam to employ all of your cronies and keep your money away from the tax man.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: France - 5/7/2012 5:24:49 PM   
Dom4subssub4doms


Posts: 95
Joined: 5/3/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dom4subssub4doms

yes and nowadays the most likely shared trait of the well off is being born well off. In europe merit dictates where you go in life here it's birth

well,.. i think kids being born rich is the biggest risk to the wealthy.. younger generations tend not to take the same care to hold and grow it.. they tend to want to squander it.. party it away, snort it up their noses and take bad risks when "investing".. Which imo could explain why Bill Gates & Buffett and other richies like them are just giving their wealth to charity, rather than let their kids & grand kids blow their billions..

according to the federal reserve the top 1 percent inherited 10 percent of the nations wealth.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: France - 5/7/2012 5:33:30 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The "richies" you are refering to are not rich in any sense of the word. How many kennedy's,rockafellas,duponts,fords,firestones,folgers etc fit your characterazation of the rich. Their welth is institutionalized which is what gates,buffet and walton have done with their wealth. A "charatible foundation" is just a scam to employ all of your cronies and keep your money away from the tax man.


I dont disagree with that, i think those charities are a huge scam but regardless, its kept out of the hands of the kids.. Paris Hilton aint getting much if anything from her grandaddy.. she has had to work for her millions... yes, i know some people would not call what she does as "work"..

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: France - 5/7/2012 5:39:00 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The "richies" you are refering to are not rich in any sense of the word. How many kennedy's,rockafellas,duponts,fords,firestones,folgers etc fit your characterazation of the rich. Their welth is institutionalized which is what gates,buffet and walton have done with their wealth. A "charatible foundation" is just a scam to employ all of your cronies and keep your money away from the tax man.


I dont disagree with that, i think those charities are a huge scam but regardless, its kept out of the hands of the kids.. Paris Hilton aint getting much if anything from her grandaddy.. she has had to work for her millions... yes, i know some people would not call what she does as "work"..



If I were inclined to grow tits and indoor plumbing I would take her job at half her salary

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 40
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