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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/12/2012 4:51:45 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

I've encountered a number of people here and elsewhere, whether sub or Dom, male or female, or any other label in the myriad swirl, who have strong opinions where love is concerned, and how (if at all) it integrates into their play.

Limits (as I have encountered them) are usually consigned to physical activities, not emotional or mental; yet that doesn't mean they cannot exist in a qualitative or quantifiable state. On that presupposition (skip if you don't agree, otherwise this wastes your time): can love be a hard limit? Would you view it as one, or know of someone who does?

This will all boil down to personal viewpoints, I know; but the discussion of outlook and application holds its own merit. If you are inclined to offer discourse, please do so.


If you tied certain pieces from other responses on the thread, you would have Mine.  I'm basing My response here on the definition that you went with in your follow up to the original in specifying that you were hoping to discuss the issue of romantic love.  With that stipulation, I would absolutely say that romantic love can be a hard limit.  All it takes is for either of the parties to say that if romantic love is something that occurs in the dynamic that the dynamic itself will be ended.  It's like crossing any other hard limit such as humiliation or rape play that if it occurs, it's not acceptable.

The comment from Des was almost perfect for some of us when it comes to primary and secondary relationships.  The only bump in the road was going back to the looser term of having feelings, rather than pinning it directly to romantic love.  It's entirely possible to have a long term relationship with someone where romantic love never enters the picture for at least one of the parties.

Alecta filled in the difference by what was termed Masterly love.  To Me, that is the natural evolution of a long term D/s or M/s dynamic that includes such things such as intimacy, trust, compatibility, mutual affection that grows over time, and sometimes, even commitment.  The significant difference is that there is no romantic component.  Service dynamics are often situations such as this.  If emotional attachment develops, great!  Yet, it's not based on that and there's no "dating" as most people are acquainted with the term. 

The place where Alecta lost Me was the difference in view about casual play.  I don't view top/bottom situations as relationship based.  Casual play runs the spectrum for Me.  I don't base it on the play itself.  I base it on whether or not there is some form of emotional attachment to the person who is bottoming to Me.  Some of My play partners have been friends for a number of years.  Others have been meet and beat scenarios.  No more or less intimate than a game of tennis.  Oddly enough, I feel completely the opposite about physical sex.

None of this has anything to do with any lack of ability of being in love.  I'm very much in romantic love with My husband, where none of the authority dynamic or BDSM play applies.


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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/12/2012 6:06:56 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

On that presupposition (skip if you don't agree, otherwise this wastes your time): can love be a hard limit? Would you view it as one, or know of someone who does?



Sure. I think anyone can list anything as a hard limit. They're just words. I personally think "hard limits" are not as hard as we think they are. I believe that the right dynamic can eliminate limits we may have previously thought steadfast. And if love is one of those hard limits, the right person can blow that right out of the water.








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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/12/2012 8:28:46 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I responded simply to the op's question however, I myself don't have casual sex or play. If it isn't inside a strong, healthy, loving relationship, then it isn't happening.

I prefer celibacy to an empty relationship.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 5:55:16 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Still, Des.......  Quite a good job from seeing things outside of your personal perspective.  Not many can do that and still be on point.  

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 4:55:27 PM   
Tyraen


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline 		The fuck kind of question is this?

limits are specific acts that partners agree that they will not be committing because one or more of the people involved are deal-breakingly uncomfortable with that act.

Love is not an act, it is an emotion, therefore via definition of Limit, love cannot possibly fall into this.

Partners can make an agreement that they are simply in a physical relationship and not take it any further than that, but that can (and often does) lead to more complicated feelings in the long run anyways, which could lead to a situation where their initial agreement becomes nulled human emotions are rather hard to put into concrete terms at all, so I would never even consider "love" and limits to even be relatable, so this question is just bizarre to me.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 6:49:47 PM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen



Love is not an act, it is an emotion, therefore via definition of Limit, love cannot possibly fall into this.




I do not believe that love is just an emotion.
Love is shown not just through words, but through actions.

For me, love is not some passive thing.

Loving someone is an action.


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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 6:52:44 PM   
poise


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Status: offline 		Amen, sistah!

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 6:56:47 PM   
Alecta


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Joined: 1/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen
Partners can make an agreement that they are simply in a physical relationship and not take it any further than that, but that can (and often does) lead to more complicated feelings in the long run anyways, which could lead to a situation where their initial agreement becomes nulled human emotions are rather hard to put into concrete terms at all, so I would never even consider "love" and limits to even be relatable, so this question is just bizarre to me.


That is a false assumption based on the scenario that the situation has changed and one partner or both are now open to a romantic relationship with each other and therefore decide that "love" is no longer a limit. But the "love as a limit" scenario translates basically to when one or both partners do NOT want a romantic relationship with each other.

As I've pointed out several times, having love as a limit does not mean stopping a person from falling for each other, there is no way anyone can do that, not really. It means you stop with the D/s if and when you fall for each other.

(in reply to Tyraen)
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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 7:38:14 PM   
RemoteUser


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Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen

The fuck kind of question is this?

limits are specific acts that partners agree that they will not be committing because one or more of the people involved are deal-breakingly uncomfortable with that act.

Love is not an act, it is an emotion, therefore via definition of Limit, love cannot possibly fall into this.

Partners can make an agreement that they are simply in a physical relationship and not take it any further than that, but that can (and often does) lead to more complicated feelings in the long run anyways, which could lead to a situation where their initial agreement becomes nulled human emotions are rather hard to put into concrete terms at all, so I would never even consider "love" and limits to even be relatable, so this question is just bizarre to me.


After reading your feedback, I would gently point out in my OP that I made a point of saying skip if you don't agree that limits can transcend physical acts (I used different words, same meaning). I said it for the very reason that it would make no sense to the reader, as you indicated.

To address your feedback: I must agree with Alecta that you place the assumption into play that love/complex emotions is (are?) inevitable. I personally have tire tracks on my backside that would respectfully argue the point. People do have strong feelings about the very notion of romantic love, and how that emotion meshes into play and ownership is not as simple as anyone might wish it to be. Thus, can it be a hard limit, because whether or not that is possible, people often do try to control and suppress their feelings, sometimes every day.

I am a person who thrives on romance and sensuality. You might guess how I'd have a personal interest in this discussion from that tidbit. Rather than dally on details of past partners, though, I'm looking for a comprehensive discussion of how this reflects on individuals and how they perceive the idea. It makes for a good talk.

Thank you for the response.

(in reply to Tyraen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 8:08:09 PM   
Tyraen


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen
Partners can make an agreement that they are simply in a physical relationship and not take it any further than that, but that can (and often does) lead to more complicated feelings in the long run anyways, which could lead to a situation where their initial agreement becomes nulled human emotions are rather hard to put into concrete terms at all, so I would never even consider "love" and limits to even be relatable, so this question is just bizarre to me.


That is a false assumption based on the scenario that the situation has changed and one partner or both are now open to a romantic relationship with each other and therefore decide that "love" is no longer a limit. But the "love as a limit" scenario translates basically to when one or both partners do NOT want a romantic relationship with each other.

As I've pointed out several times, having love as a limit does not mean stopping a person from falling for each other, there is no way anyone can do that, not really. It means you stop with the D/s if and when you fall for each other.


I guess so, I suppose just for me I couldn't imagine a logical situation where love and D/s are mutually exclusive. I mean if you agree no romantic feelings then do D/s-ey things and then become romantically involved, how could you cut out the D/s-ey parts? Wouldn't they be intrinsically involved at this point since it's likely this is the where most of your intereactions came from in the first place?

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 8:13:20 PM   
Tyraen


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen

The fuck kind of question is this?

limits are specific acts that partners agree that they will not be committing because one or more of the people involved are deal-breakingly uncomfortable with that act.

Love is not an act, it is an emotion, therefore via definition of Limit, love cannot possibly fall into this.

Partners can make an agreement that they are simply in a physical relationship and not take it any further than that, but that can (and often does) lead to more complicated feelings in the long run anyways, which could lead to a situation where their initial agreement becomes nulled human emotions are rather hard to put into concrete terms at all, so I would never even consider "love" and limits to even be relatable, so this question is just bizarre to me.


After reading your feedback, I would gently point out in my OP that I made a point of saying skip if you don't agree that limits can transcend physical acts (I used different words, same meaning). I said it for the very reason that it would make no sense to the reader, as you indicated.

To address your feedback: I must agree with Alecta that you place the assumption into play that love/complex emotions is (are?) inevitable. I personally have tire tracks on my backside that would respectfully argue the point. People do have strong feelings about the very notion of romantic love, and how that emotion meshes into play and ownership is not as simple as anyone might wish it to be. Thus, can it be a hard limit, because whether or not that is possible, people often do try to control and suppress their feelings, sometimes every day.

I am a person who thrives on romance and sensuality. You might guess how I'd have a personal interest in this discussion from that tidbit. Rather than dally on details of past partners, though, I'm looking for a comprehensive discussion of how this reflects on individuals and how they perceive the idea. It makes for a good talk.

Thank you for the response.



Well i've been having a bad day, so I will be the one to thank you for not grilling me on having such a hostile response, I should have not been so inflammatory (but apparently it won't let me edit it for future readers :( ). I suppose my perspective is that love is just a very deep caring for someone, often to the point where you care more about them than yourself, and I think that with something like sexuality that is a rather large part of what will bring you to that point and to me it would be unfeasible and unreasonable thing to try and separate it more than you'd try to separate any other part of your relationship from the rest of your interactions... if any of that made sense. Not 100% sure if it does... kind of tired and might be saying nonsensical things at this point.

I guess ill just ask how limits could possibly transcend physical acts, because that kind of baffles me a bit... i might just be thick or cause i'm tired but its not clicking and I want to hear about this.

< Message edited by Tyraen -- 5/13/2012 8:16:18 PM >

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 8:41:08 PM   
Alecta


Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen
I guess so, I suppose just for me I couldn't imagine a logical situation where love and D/s are mutually exclusive. I mean if you agree no romantic feelings then do D/s-ey things and then become romantically involved, how could you cut out the D/s-ey parts? Wouldn't they be intrinsically involved at this point since it's likely this is the where most of your intereactions came from in the first place?




D/s is an activity, love is an emotion. It seems natural to me that these are separate entities that can absolutely exist independently of each other, although a degree of affectionate feeling is expected in order for two people to want to have any sort of contact with each other at all, in any context, embarking on any activity. That's why I asked initially for the OP to define "love", since it is near impossible for most people to establish a circumstance in which NO kind of affection is permitted to exist. The OP has defined it as romantic love, which we shall follow to assume is the emotion that motivates typical vanilla romance.

To expand on my earlier posts(I don't know which one you responded to), there also exists in D/s the affection between a casual top and bottom pair in the heat of play, the "fwb" where you are platonic friends outside of the D/s, and the affection between committed Master and slave/sub that is not "romantic" per say which I'd called "Masterly love".

In a circumstance where love is seen as a limit, it means the agreement is that the play relationship come to an end as soon as romantic feelings develop. Whether this means the pair would cease to interact or continue in a different sort of relationship or simply re-evaluate their pre-negotiated limit is not in consideration. If the expectation is that the parties do not wish to become involved with each other as "girlfriend and boyfriend", it is safe to say that the "love" limit as laid out by the OP would be when the parties expect to become "girlfriend and boyfriend" rather than Master and slave. It is no different from the understanding that an FWB situation would come to an end when the parties become serious about each other and no longer wish to merely be fuck-buddies.


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My face is a hard limit...wait...what? - 5/13/2012 8:53:32 PM   
riverbend37


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/7/2012
Status: offline 		It really depends on what the lifestyle means to you and how involved you want it to be in everyday life.
There are plenty of people who enjoy every facet while having a clear idea of what they desire in terms of relationships.
This is a lifestyle that thrives on creativity and genuine inspiration, not unlike high art.
Finding true love with someone who enjoys every aspect of BDSM, D/s, Leather, and what have you...can be tricky.
Developing a lasting, committed, and truly meaningful relationship is one of the highest human experiences. Finding someone who likes the same abstract thoughts, cultural tastes, and intellectual pursuits is a journey filled with trial and triumph.
We should never be afraid to find what we are looking for, it's always out there.
There are probably a greater number of people who are just into experiences and services, which means a lot of people are professional about it. To that end, love can definitely be a hard limit, and hard when trying to find your match. Most people make their limits known, which is imperative and always respectable, but can be discouraging as humans are emotional creatures. We like who we like.

Having said all of this, which only loosely makes sense, there is really nothing else to say other than...
Yes.
Love can be a hard limit. But that's not pessimistic or anything...Love can also be a hard not-limit too! :)

Also, I just want to say I really like how into this post everyone got! The thread stayed really civil, intelligent, and focused! Even dissenting opinions were well thought out and expressed with consideration to others! It really stinks when some kind of "posting fight" breaks out. I'm not being cheesy, just positive. While it's hard to find a match in this lifestyle, its populated by thoughtful people!

Also, Also....I'm thinking I may have strayed off topic anyway. Oh well, this will do.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 10:20:30 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		Totally useless to me if I can't love him. If it's your hard limit, it's my deal breaker. Falling in love with my submissive and loving my play partner goes without saying. Simply can't be any other way for me.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/13/2012 10:40:56 PM   
riverbend37


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/7/2012
Status: offline 		Absolutely the deal!
I like this response.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/14/2012 10:47:17 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelOfSilence

quote:

the answer to any "can x be a hard limit" question is universally YES
Correct.


It's really that simple... (shocker ain't it?)

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/15/2012 12:37:45 AM   
Tyraen


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Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4


quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelOfSilence

quote:

the answer to any "can x be a hard limit" question is universally YES
Correct.


It's really that simple... (shocker ain't it?)


I suppose that this is the best answer...

But it just seems strange to try and put a hard limit on something you cannot control. It would be similar (not exactly the same mind you) to putting a hard limit to not being aroused by hot looking strangers. I mean, it's not something you can control, and making it a limit seems really pointless.

I guess if you wanted to make it only a physical relationship that would be different, but I still wouldn't be able to call it a hard limit, as for me hard limits are permanent and unchanging limits, and what could be a physical only relationship can very easily turn into something more. It's happened enough in real life to be almost a cliche at this point, so we aren't talking improbably stuff here.
But Maybe that's the disconnect I'm having, as my hard limits are things I would never bend on for any reason and likely never will.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/15/2012 4:56:16 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I can love someone and be happy if that love is "not returned".
I don't love to be loved back; I love because I love.
In a way, how the other person feels about me is kinda none of my business.



_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
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http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/15/2012 5:11:31 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		Personally, Love is not a must have for what I want, need or desire out of a relationship.
For awhile in my life it was, but that was then and now is now.

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RE: Love: A Hard Limit? - 5/15/2012 5:14:09 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sitting here laughing my ass off...because when it comes to LOVE...some forms and kinds of it are Hard Limits for me to deal with!! (Just being honest)

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