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How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 4:54:35 PM   
kalikshama


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http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2012/05/12/how-jpmorgan-lost-17-5-billion/

JPMorgan Chase (JPM) lost $17.5 billion this week. It all springs from a bad trade that’s still going bad — to the tune of $2 billion and potentially $3 billion. But then there’s the 9.3% plunge in JPMorgan’s market capitalization — adding another $14.5 billion in shareholder losses. And of course, there’s the additional capital it may need to raise in light of S&P’s and Fitch’s concerns about its creditworthiness.

In my conversations Friday with reporters from Smart Money and the Boston Globe, I could not answer a basic question: What happened? According to the May 12th New York Times, JPMorgan decided to make a bet on a very obscure corner of the derivatives market. And due to the scale of JPMorgan’s trading, hedge funds figured out its identity and placed bets against the bank that are continuing to make profits for them at JPMorgan’s expense.

JPMorgan operates a Chief Investment Office (CIO) that is responsible for this bad bet. The CIO takes the portion of the bank’s $1.1 trillion in deposits that the rest of the bank does not know how to lend or invest and trades that money — with the idea of making a profit for JPMorgan. In 2009, CIO’s net income peaked at $3.7 billion — generating 147% more profit than it had earned in 2008. Back then, JPMorgan had made a lucky bet on U.S. government guaranteed mortgage-backed securities.

Since then, CIO has not been as big of a profit center for JPMorgan. In the summer of 2011, it looks like it started to go further out on the risk/return frontier to earn a profit. The CIO observed that the premium to insure against a default of companies in an index of American companies was greater than what it cost to buy protection against the default of each of the individual companies in that index.

So it called big Wall Street brokers to announce that it wanted to sell insurance on this index – with the memorable name, CDX IG Series 9 — that would protect buyers in the event that one of 121 big American companies – including General Mills, Alcoa, and McDonald’s – went bankrupt. If a company on the index went bankrupt, the CIO would pay a claim, otherwise it would collect the quarterly premium.

JPMorgan initially made money on the position and so did a club of hedge funds ”focused on credit opportunities,” according to the Times. By January 2012, CIO’s brokers called hedge funds almost daily and they figured out that the secret seller was Bruno Iksil, JPMorgan’s London Whale.

JPMorgan had two ways to win on its bet. Its cost of insuring CDX IG Series 9 would drop either if the companies in the index continued to do well or if JPMorgan sold so much insurance that the supply exceeded the demand.

This January and February, hedge funds began to realize that JPMorgan’s capital limitations meant that it would eventually stop selling more insurance on this index. Moreover, according to FT Alphaville, those hedge funds concluded that the premium for insuring the index should have been above the premium for each of the 121 companies individually.

The hedge funds decided to bet against JPMorgan to profit from a rise in the premium as the market corrected for this mis-pricing of the risk.

With the economy apparently getting better, the hedge funds were losing money on their trade as they paid their quarterly insurance premiums. And the hedge funds were angry because they believed that The London Whale was manipulating the market and causing them to lose money on their bet.

Moreover, since CDX IG Series 9 was unregulated, there were no government officials to whom they could voice their complaints. So the hedge funds leaked their suspicions to Bloomberg in early April.

And this leak seems to have spooked The London Whale — along with the cost of insuring against four particularly risky companies in the CDX IG Series 9 — Radian, MBIA, Sprint Nextel, and R.R. Donnelley & Sons. Perhaps this spooking caused JPMorgan to stop selling more insurance to artificially depress the premium.

In any case, by late March, people started getting antsy about the economy and the index jumped — making the hedge funds happy. According to the Times, JPMorgan’s first quarter losses were not big enough to make the bank acknowledge the criticism but thanks to media coverage, the index spiked — and so did JPMorgan’s potential insurance claims if the companies in the index went bankrupt.

This matters because JPMorgan has been fighting the sort of regulation that would block such reckless gambles. Ultimately, people who deposit money in a bank want the money kept safe. And as long as the government has enough money to cover all the losses from a collapsed banking system, FDIC insurance protects depositors in the event that bets like JPMorgan’s send a bank down the tubes.

But what caused JPMorgan to lose money was its highly speculative trade against hedge funds that was being made artificially profitable by using JPMorgan’s capital — your deposits — to push down the price of insurance below the so-called free market rate.

Given the $23.7 trillion in cash and guarantees used to bail out financial institutions in 2008, depositors and taxpayers have good reason to question the kind of “free market” that Wall Street’s $5 billion in Washington campaign contributions and lobbying fees has bought.

Perhaps deposit-only banks would be a better alternative.




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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:15:06 PM   
Politesub53


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Moves are afoot here in the UK to seperate ordinary banking from investment banking. About time too.

I would guess several higher ups were on a bonus for any money made by Iksil, so they paid scant regard to his trades.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:32:35 PM   
FullCircle


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As a long term solution how does separating out the investment side of banking work? Where does the interest paid into accounts come from?

It's an ideological move based on public outrage. We should stop and think the long term implications through rather than being reactionary. London became one of if not the biggest providers of financial services in Europe (in the form it is now) and my fears are we are now about to tinker with it which will probably mean we fuck it up completely. The banking sector has taken a bit of a beating but there are two people in a lending relationship. Do people really expect a faceless organisation to have a better idea as to if they are a good bet than they themselves? Some people seem to have a lack of responsibility attitude to their borrowing. The banks fault was not keeping enough in reserve and being slightly ignorant about its borrowers. Seems to be an easier way to fix these problems without completely overhauling the banking industry.


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/12/2012 5:33:39 PM >


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:36:06 PM   
Hillwilliam


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I'm certain some exec will get a bonus out of it.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:39:06 PM   
Politesub53


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Well it worked okay before we had investment banks joined with savings banks. The main banks would make money out of lending your savings to those capable of paying it back, and not by investing in credit default swaps that they didnt even understand.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:44:40 PM   
FullCircle


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Bonuses are taxable and they usually get spent locally.

Not in my lifetime will I earn as much as some do in a year but I don't really care because I know it eventually filters through the economy giving me the little bits I need to pay the bills. Obviously it's not great for inflation on the other hand.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:48:29 PM   
Politesub53


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Nonsense, many top earners (and shamedly our MPs) use clever tax allowance schemes to avoid payment. Theres nothing to say money spent is spent locally or invested locally either.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:53:18 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Well it worked okay before we had investment banks joined with savings banks. The main banks would make money out of lending your savings to those capable of paying it back, and not by investing in credit default swaps that they didnt even understand.

In those days what was the average AER on a savings account? Take any bank and you'll see the profits from the investment side far outstrip those on the retail side. If you force them to separate it just means less divided between the same amount of account holders. The only people able to benefit from the investment side will be those who already have large sums of money.

The ordinary saver will lose out from this move but it's a populist thing to do they've just not realised what they are asking for yet.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:57:47 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Nonsense, many top earners (and shamedly our MPs) use clever tax allowance schemes to avoid payment. Theres nothing to say money spent is spent locally or invested locally either.

Say they are, those people that are using such methods are still paying far more than you or I. Perhaps not as a percentage but when do percentages count for anything when one persons wages are astronomical compared to another's? It's apples and oranges no one is paying less than their cleaner. Even if it was the 20% based on calling yourself a company.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 5:57:57 PM   
Politesub53


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Again, thats nonsense. Returns on savings and returns on investments are two different things.

Savers get paid dependent on current interest rates, shareholders are investing, so taking more risks, so getting a divend linked to performance. (Although not as good a dividend as CEO`s etc)

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 6:07:43 PM   
FullCircle


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Banking interest rates are governed by banking profits not Mervyn King making a prediction about the economy. The base rate doesn't often filter through to the average borrower or saver.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/12/2012 6:08:25 PM >


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 6:08:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Well it worked okay before we had investment banks joined with savings banks. The main banks would make money out of lending your savings to those capable of paying it back, and not by investing in credit default swaps that they didnt even understand.

In those days what was the average AER on a savings account? Take any bank and you'll see the profits from the investment side far outstrip those on the retail side. If you force them to separate it just means less divided between the same amount of account holders. The only people able to benefit from the investment side will be those who already have large sums of money.

The ordinary saver will lose out from this move but it's a populist thing to do they've just not realised what they are asking for yet.


Before bank deregulation in the US banks paid 5.25% on savings accounts, higher on christmas accounts and the like.

Simply returning to seperate retail and investment banks won't bring that back. We'd have to return to very tightly regulated all banks.

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 6:20:36 PM   
FullCircle


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Healthy competition in the banking sector is the best way to get better interest rates. I think at the moment they are all paranoid about lending, the rates are not that competitive because they all know each other's concerns too well. i.e. Bank A knows that Bank B wouldn't be able to offer an account with that interest rate at this time so it doesn't have to do so itself. In time I expect they'll lose track and things will loosen up. This idea that PS has that banks do not dip into their profits from the investment side of the business to attract new account holders with good savings rates is just untrue and defies common sense. If that isn't what they do it's obvious they should do it, anyone wanting to attract retail customers would.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/12/2012 6:24:14 PM >


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 6:50:05 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

FullCircle
It's an ideological move based on public outrage. We should stop and think the long term implications through rather than being reactionary. London became one of if not the biggest providers of financial services in Europe (in the form it is now) and my fears are we are now about to tinker with it which will probably mean we fuck it up completely.


Like it isn't "fucked up" already? Like there isn't a Global Finanical Crisis? Like the GFC wasn't caused by the buccaneering antics of these same bankers on the derivatives markets and other high risk markets/casinos?

Banking greed has already taken us to the current disastrous situations almost all Western economies are facing. Now, it seems that more incompetence by the banks has resulted in a $2 billion loss. It's clear that the banks haven't learnt their lesson. It's clear that they are still engaged in the same practices that set the GFC off - playing the derivatives/futures markets, lavish bonuses, and so on - while all the time trying to block regulation and oversight.

The case for more regulation and a tax on speculative trading appears overwhelming to me. With their track record of incompetence on a monumental scale over the past few years, only a fool would leave control of the banking system to bankers, or more accurately the punters that currently masquerade as bankers.



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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 7:05:38 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

As a long term solution how does separating out the investment side of banking work? Where does the interest paid into accounts come from?


I've got an even better idea. How about we bring back Glass–Steagall that limited commercial banks' security activities.
This country has been through the wringer.
Your solution FC might have worked out I think if we'd inserted it as we phased out Glass–Steagall. But the genie is out of the bottle and we need a big and drastic cork. And we need to shitcan all the Jamie Dimons .. who arrogantly have gone about their business with no eye on reforming ANYTHING. In fact, they've engaged in hateful behavior and bribed the NYPD into ATTEMPTING to beat down OWS.... A BITCH ASS MOVE that had had NO SUCCESS.
But I dunno, you might be in the Euro where you guys will need your own solution. I can't tell because you have no profile. I have to guess by your context.
I would have to say that it must be far different where you are in regard to your second post. The 'bonuses' here are merely added to portfolios. I see no evidence at all they are investing much in the community ... unless you count buying cops $4.5m in heh 'funding for laptops' (hint - NYPD crusiers ALREADY have them and get them REALLY CHEAP from Dell).
But it sure incentivized the NYPD to arrest the 763 people they did that day.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 7:58:52 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

JPMorgan Chase (JPM) lost $17.5 billion this week. It all springs from a bad trade that’s still going bad — to the tune of $2 billion and potentially $3 billion.

heh .. since my travel package hasn't arrived yet and the work-week has me grounded a few more days... I can indulge in some good old fashioned TOLD YA SOs

Kali... you should be ashamed for picking on the cons here with these posts about one of their biggest heroes COMPLETELY FUCKING SECURITIES MARKETS UP for god knows how long?
Shame on you... especially using that Liberal rag forbes ... Oh wait!!!! Did I say F-O-R-B-E-S??? As in Steve Forbes... Fuck ... never mind.
Oh, and what was it I was saying WAYyYYyyyyYyyy back in october about the dangers involved in allowing these assholes laying off 93 Trillion on OUR DEPOSITS? I Do that I remember the SUPREME RELIEF when some guy who knows eveything about money/finance said 'relax, it's like 75 Trillion
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-11/bofa-says-regulators-may-limit-transfer-of-merrill-derivatives.html
Sorry I can't find the article that tells you how potentially catastrophic that really is. The Mayor Of New York's news service sugar coats it by sort implying these guys know what the fuck they are doing..... TRY NO.
Really ... we should just pass this one off on "those OWS scum". They are such BASTARDS for warning this would happen. Jesus, it's like the idiots who run their mouths don't get advice from some very intelligent economists and investment guys who've come into the light so to speak.
And it's also not like there isn't a shitpile of MBAs in finance hanging out in the heard.
But whatever, this is proof of the brilliance of the imbeciles who go on attack every time an OWS picture is posted.
Heh ,,, it's going to be an interesting next couple of weeks while they hide this mess and we brace for the next.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 8:13:58 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Banking interest rates are governed by banking profits not Mervyn King making a prediction about the economy.


You've GOT to be from europe somewhere (Mervyn King). I suppose it's different there (whether or not it works is pretty damned unapparent if you read the papers though ... some would even use terms like "trainwreck"). That said we have the great Ben Bernanke and I can ASSURE you the market isn't setting our interest rates right now.
and they haven't been set by the market in almost half a decade.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/12/2012 8:26:35 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I'm certain some exec will get a bonus out of it.


I'm thinking of standing in that BIG ASS FUCKING LOBBY (Really... Ever been there? The "Lobby" is a COMPLETE FUCKING SHOPPING MALL.).

The NYSE looks like a DUMP compared to that place. Anyway, my idea is to print this out

http://www.occ.gov/topics/capital-markets/financial-markets/trading/derivatives/dq211.pdf
.... Taped to a sing that says "Told Ya So. Bonus Please"

Maybe someone will take pitty and give me a mill cause I'm not shouting ... something apropos like "THEY OUGHT TO HANG EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU MOTHERFUCKERS"... In combination with the sign, I mean.

BTW - I didn't mention it, cause I couldn't find a second person to substantiate the rumor, but now ... fuck it.. it's probably true. You want to guess who Romney's people contacted early last week? Hint .. it was to replace Geithner, were he to actually get elected.
FUCK NOOoOOooooooooooo!

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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/13/2012 12:10:38 AM   
erieangel


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Romney wants even less regulation.

We need to bring back Glass-Steagall.

The economy didn't suffer when we had regulation. Now all we have is suffering.


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RE: How JPMorgan Lost $17.5 Billion - 5/13/2012 4:39:54 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Nonsense, many top earners (and shamedly our MPs) use clever tax allowance schemes to avoid payment. Theres nothing to say money spent is spent locally or invested locally either.

Say they are, those people that are using such methods are still paying far more than you or I. Perhaps not as a percentage but when do percentages count for anything when one persons wages are astronomical compared to another's? It's apples and oranges no one is paying less than their cleaner. Even if it was the 20% based on calling yourself a company.



Tax avoidance is still tax avoidance, more like apples and apples than apples and oranges. Your claim was any tax would trickle down, it wont do that if it isnt being paid, would it ?

Regards the Bank Of England base rate, wtf do you think banks base their APR on ? It still hold that the riskier your investment the higher the possible loss or return. This has nothing to do with ordinary savings accounts as you seem to think. Any money earned by any arm of Barclays goes back to the main company and is paid to shareholders, not to savers.

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