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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 6:09:00 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

"I think submission will come easy knowing that play is there but when play is withheld is when a boy starts to misbehave especially so if he is into heavy scenes and the scenes are consistent for each month."

The above comment was said to me by a submissive I just met. He was commenting on his interpretation of my profile. I have in my profile that I am looking for the whole package when it comes to a submissive. One who is willing to submit to me outside of "play" and that I was looking for more than bottom. I was a little taken back by this statement. It gave me something to really think about. I think that submission should be easy for a submissive, no matter what the consequences or reward the submissive wants or expects. What are your thoughts about his comment?


In a Longish term relationship, you reap what you sow. The basics are: paying attention, caring, listening, asking the right questions, dealing with changes, staying vulnerable, and keeping the passion alive. A submissive stops feeling "submissive" and giving if: 1) taken for granted; 2) you mismanage him; 3) things are consistently imbalanced and skewed. (unfair)

Common myths about submissives are:

1) That they naturally revolve around you.

2) That your happiness is all that matters.

3) That they are "naturally submissive," and hence not reliant and connected to a DOMME's actions.

4) That they are immune to relationship problems.

(By now, you get the idea.)

Typically, too, subs look to Dommes for guidance and leadership and typically Dommes are "the lead." In D/S, there also is the general expectation that DOMME's are "right" because of their position.

Add all that together and then ask yourself, what is a sub to do when they feel things are going wrong (as they inevitably will from time to time.) The sub now has to do three "out of character" things. He has to take the lead, provide guidance, and tell the DOMME she isn't right or that things are not working.

This can put a great deal of stress on a D/S relationship.

A Domme therefore needs to be congnizant of not putting a sub in that position (if she wants to keep him, anyway), and she must be sensitive to what's going on when a sub "stops being submissive."

If you are skillful in these two areas, I think your prospects of maintaining a LTR brighten tremendously. Although Skinner like behavior training my play a role in D/S, there is simply no way it can ever make up for the human connection between two people.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/6/2006 6:29:34 AM >

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 6:21:06 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
I think that submission should be easy for a submissive, no matter what the consequences or reward the submissive wants or expects. What are your thoughts about his comment?

Submission should be NATURAL in terms of it just being how the person IS in the relationship.  It should not be forced and it should not be a carrot on the end of the dominance stick.

But that doesn't mean it's EASY.  Relationships are hard work.  Being true to yourself and true to your commitments isn't always an easy thing, keeping priorities and training in mind isn't always easy.

Rewards can make them a lot easier and smoother.  We're just like that.

So while I wouldn't recommend using scenes as a carrot to gain submission in a long term relationship, using ANYTHING for a reward when the submission is there already makes sense.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 6:35:42 AM   
soldierfunuk


Posts: 56
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		If I can add my bit. 

I am a submissive.  I get my kicks from caring for and supporting and helping my Mistress.  I do not do things wrong to get punished.  I have found out the hard way this does'nt work.  With my last Mistress punishments were exactly that, a punishment (and boy did I not want them, not always physical, sometimes mental, but always a punishment) and always something which changed my behavior.

A look of disapproval was all it took, she did'nt even need to speak.  Instead I was rewarded for being good, doing something out of the ordinary to please her.  My reward was being alowed to play (on her terms of course).  Going back to the question.  Am I submissive out of the playroom, of course I am, I could not think of any other way to be.  I am submissive in the kitchen, in the supermarket, at the zoo, at a party, everywhere.  I want to be submissive and I am, I know no other way.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 6:47:26 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		MistressofGA,
I'm fairly certain that you are well aware of what you are dealing with with that one.

As for submission being easy....I don't find that statement to be entirely true. My submission is a natural thing to me, something that I would liken to the urge to pee....an urge that can't be denied and doesn't go away if you want it too....or even come at the most convenient times. In that respect, yes it's easy, it is always there. The outward expression of that submission and the acts that are sometimes required....no, that is not always so easy..

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/6/2006 7:11:23 AM >

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 6:58:11 AM   
shivvy


Posts: 746
Joined: 3/25/2006
From: Ireland, living in Kent, England.
Status: offline 		Withholding Sessions For Better Submission?
 
i agree with wot a lot of people have said. i am naturally submissive. i always have been, since long before i woz old enuff to know wot to call it, and even longer before i knew anything about D/s and bdsm. It's just the way i woz brought up i spose, and just the way i am.
 
me and my Master don't 'Play', so we don't eva have any sessions to with hold anyway, but i think like soldierfunuk said, just a look of disapproval from my Master is enuff to make me feel really guilty and remorseful. i would neva do nuffin to deliberately make Him unhappy or sad, coz a) i luv Him with all that i am and b) coz i just don't want too. i don't go looking for punishments (not real ones anyway)
 
Sorry, but just my two penny's worth.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:08:29 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline 		When I wrote that submission should be easy, what I meant was "natural". By no means do I think anything in a relationship is easy. It takes a tremendous amount of hard work and dedication for both parties.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:11:16 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
When I wrote that submission should be easy, what I meant was "natural". By no means do I think anything in a relationship is easy. It takes a tremendous amount of hard work and dedication for both parties.

It's hard to me to use the word "natural" even because so many use it as an elitist mark of awesomeness- like "He told me I was a NATURAL submissive" thus making others question who they are just because they don't act like a stereotypical floor groveler.

But, in this thread, I haven't seen any evidence of that, and that's cool. :)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:12:19 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

MistressofGA,
I'm fairly certain that you are well aware of what you are dealing with with that one.


Yep.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:33:21 AM   
soldierfunuk


Posts: 56
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Easy - no,
natural - maybe,
hard work - definately,
still trying - yes,
still learning - god yes,
afraid of rejection or doing something wrong - pertified,
trying to please - my aim in life,
the feeling of warmth when told I am good - priceless.

Forgive me for rambling on.

_____________________________

Property of Mistress Angel.
Please return if lost.

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:35:46 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
When I wrote that submission should be easy, what I meant was "natural". By no means do I think anything in a relationship is easy. It takes a tremendous amount of hard work and dedication for both parties.

It's hard to me to use the word "natural" even because so many use it as an elitist mark of awesomeness- like "He told me I was a NATURAL submissive" thus making others question who they are just because they don't act like a stereotypical floor groveler.

But, in this thread, I haven't seen any evidence of that, and that's cool. :)

L.A.
I understand completely what you are saying. When I use the term natural, it is liken to "She has a natural beauty", which says that she doesnt have to apply cosmetics to look beautiful. When I say natural about a submissive, I am not suggesting that those who have to work harder at being submissive arent true or real.  I have a submissive friend that really has to work hard at controlling her brattiness. She is a funny girl and sometimes her mouth gets her in trouble. Is she any less a submissive than what I would consider a natural submissive? No, she just has to work harder at it, just as a woman who has to apply make up to enhance her appearence does.


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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 7:52:04 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

I actually think the "I'll be submissive as long as I get my fetish/kink/sex needs on my schedule" mentality is quite common.  How many times have we heard "I'm submissive if I'm dressed in women's clothes" or "I feel soooo submissive after I get spanked the way I like it"?  

I don't think such a scenario works, however.  While there's nothing wrong with topping/bottoming and agreeing upfront what each gets out of it, "submissive behavior" should not be a "reward" to a Dominant who does the sub as they dictate they get done.  I really doubt in such a scenario our definitions of "submissive behavior" mesh (I was once told it meant he'd let me tie him up and have sex - I passed), but as others have noted, it's the height of manipulation.

MsSonnetMarwood,
While there's nothing wrong with topping/bottoming and agreeing upfront what each gets out of it
I am not looking for a bottom. I agree that there is nothing wrong with topping/bottoming, IF it is known and agreed upon to begin with. But when someone tells you that they are submissive and then later you find out he/she will only submit to you in the bedroom, that is where I have a problem with them.  I would much rather be told up front. But isnt that like a double edge sword for the bottom? If he emails you with "Hello, I am looking for someone to play with" don't we automatically view him as a wanker? So what is the recourse for such a person? To say they are submissive and then only submit to the Dom in the bedroom.  But sooner or later, the Dom gets hip to the game and asks Why didnt you just say you were a bottom to begin with? And the cycle begins again.


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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 8:30:53 AM   
lisa1978


Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline 		I just wonder if this is not just miss trust and miss communication. As a few have said on here already, as a submissive I take joy and pleasure from the non bedroom things like cooking a nice meal and things like that. I also think it is a cardinal sin of a subbmissive person to act out to get "punished". At the same time though there are levels of feelings when being submissive and day in day out vanilla aspects without the more BDSM things does leave me not in a good place and definetly feeling neglected and I do not feel sorry for feeling that way. I need the discipline and to be used in the harder ways to keep me in a happier place. Not all dominants understand this. This is also why I hate the word "natural". Too often used to blame, self boast or use as an excuse for selfish actions from both sides.

That is why the terms discipline and punishment are two very different things in the lifestyle. People who practice domestic Discipline have a great term about what I am talking about, maintenance spanking.

From reading the OP you can certainly conclude that he is just a bedroom player only looking out for his next play time. I can also read into the brief statement that he is talking about needing discipline to help him with his submission and was concerned that you have serving and BDSM as totally seperate issues or the BDSM is just fun stuff. All of it is important and tied into everything.


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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 9:17:56 AM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline 		(Fast reply)

"I think submission will come easy knowing that play is there but when play is withheld is when a boy starts to misbehave especially so if he is into heavy scenes and the scenes are consistent for each month."

I read it like this:

"I childishly manipulate my relationships under the guise of submission. If you don’t play with me as often as I want to be played with, and in the manner I want to be played with, I’m going to misbehave."

To which I would have replied:

"Fuck off wanker."

Now, as for submission being easy… or even relationships being easy.
You know, I might be in the minority here, but I really haven’t found that relationships have to be "hard work". I see a lot of people say that. "Relationships take a lot of hard work." It’s just not true in my experience. If all of my relationships were this uber-challenge, I probably would reconsider whether or not they were worth it. Yeah, there will be some rocky times in any relationship, or any situation really… my friend’s parent is ill. It’s a bit of a hurdle. Someone goes through menopause. It’s a bit of a hurdle. But "it takes a lot of hard work".. I just don’t see it.
If I saw keeping a friend or a mate as "a lot of hard work", I’d wonder if that particular relationship was really meant to be.

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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 9:47:00 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

"I think submission will come easy knowing that play is there but when play is withheld is when a boy starts to misbehave especially so if he is into heavy scenes and the scenes are consistent for each month."



This statement equates to ..."GIVE ME what I want.. and I will be good!! and if I don't ... YOU WILL BE SORRY!"

Now, I can appreciate that everyone requires certain basic wants/needs to be fullfilled within the relationship context.  However, I do take exceptation to the implied negative behavior that is going to result if the wants/needs are not met.  It's like the spoilt child throwing a temper tantrum because they don't get what they want. 

I do believe that both Dominance and Submission are intrinsicly motivated behaviors.  The specifics types of behaviors are not universal from person to person.  However, a specific individual will have a core set of behaviors that have evolved from childhood that reflect their intrinsic motivations.  These behaviors are not like some fancy clothes they put on when they go out for dinner.  They are core sets of behaviors that you see from them from almost a moment to moment basis.  They could no more more stop breathing than they could stop demonstrating these basic behaviors of their nature.  It is my thoughts that these behaviors are not neccessarily overt and obvious.  Often it just a feeling that affects our perception of a given person.  For example, I have watched alandra enjoy sexual play with a variety of males over the years.  The act of sex is rather basic and not too complicated.  However, I have watch various men that show themselves to be on different points on that D/s spectrum.  A few have been very much on one end or the other.  It's these ones that are most noticeable to me.  Those that fall in the middle range tend to be much more situational in their expression of Dominance or Submission rather than a expression of their core nature being manifested outward.

A person that gave me a statement as quoted above is a huge red flag.  It reflects someone that is going to be manipulative to get what they want and they will use what you want against you.  This person reflects a character that I find highly distasteful and to be avoided.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 6/6/2006 10:27:44 AM >

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RE: Withholding Sessions For Better Submission? - 6/6/2006 10:13:04 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

"I think submission will come easy knowing that play is there but when play is withheld is when a boy starts to misbehave especially so if he is into heavy scenes and the scenes are consistent for each month."



This statement equates to ..."GIVE ME what I want.. and I will be good!! and if I don't ... YOU WILL BE SORRY!"

Now, I can appreciate that everyone requires certain basic wants/needs to be fullfilled within the relationship context.  However, I do take expectation to the implied negative behavior that is going to result if the wants/needs are not met.  It's like the spoilt child throwing a temper tantrum because they don't get what they want. 

I do believe that both Dominance and Submission are intrinsicly motivated behaviors.  The specifics types of behaviors are not universal from person to person.  However, a specific individual will have a core set of behaviors that have evolved from childhood that reflect their intrinsic motivations.  These behaviors are not like some fancy clothes they put on when they go out for dinner.  They are core sets of behaviors that you see from them from almost a moment to moment basis.  They could no more more stop breathing than they could stop demonstrating these basic behaviors of their nature.  It is my thoughts that these behaviors are not neccessarily overt and obvious.  Often it just a feeling that affects our perception of a given person.  For example, I have watched alandra enjoy sexual play with a variety of males over the years.  The act of sex is rather basic and not too complicated.  However, I have watch various men that show themselves to be on different points on that D/s spectrum.  A few have been very much on one end or the other.  It's these ones that are most noticeable to me.  Those that fall in the middle range tend to be much more situational in their expression of Dominance or Submission rather than a expression of their core nature being manifested outward.

A person that gave me a statement as quoted above is a huge red flag.  It reflects someone that is going to be manipulative to get what they want and they will use what you want against you.  This person reflects a character that I find highly distasteful and to be avoided.

I agree. That is the reason I no longer have any contact with this person. I dont even know his name, we talked once and it was during this conversation that he made that comment. <shrugs> No big loss <s>

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