RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub"

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Estring -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/29/2004 10:48:38 PM)
Well, hopefully the younger feminists such as you have been able to get past the man hating agenda that has been pushed since the 70's. I don't believe that most feminists believe that men and women are equal. They believe that men are inferior to women. Talk to any woman that has taken any womens' studies class in college and they can tell you. Perverse, the fact that you and your friends don't buy into that is good to hear.

happypervert -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/29/2004 11:21:57 PM)
Perfect sub? Hmmmm . . . this would be just my opinion, but it would be a gal that I feel completely comfortable and at ease with because of compatible temperments, senses of humor, and probably skewed views on things compared to popular culture. Perhaps with that kind of connection, she might know me better than I do just as jade described. heh . . . I figure I'm asking for too much just with that, but since you said "perfect", I'll also include "great cook" in the description.

INSIDEYOURMIND -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 8:30:32 AM)
I think I found it? The "Perfect" Submissive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Master and servant by Trystilarn Slave: :::kneeling::: Oh Master!!!! You are the whole of my universe, the certainty of my existence. You are why my heart beats, my lungs fill, my toes curl. You shelter me like an offshore bank in the Reagan years. i grovel before you in awe of Your power, willing to satisfy You in every way... Master: :::peering over the paper::: Every way? Slave: :::pressing forehead to the floor and wiggling seductively::: Anything and everything is open to You oh Magnificent Maven of Mastery!! i beg, nay, beseech, nayer still, humbly crawl to kiss Your toes in the hopes You will use me... Master: The bank account? Slave: ::looking up from underneath her hair::: what? Master: Your bank account. You said everything was open to me, so I was thinking of that big account you have ... Slave: ::coming up on all fours to stare:: Oh most wonderfulest of all Masters, surely you know that your ultimate control of me is so extensive that all I have is yours, but...BUT...You are so secure in the knowledge of my perfect and total enslavement that You would have no need to actually =have= an account number for this, Your most humble of servants. Master: No cash? Slave: :::dropping head back down to the floor::: As always, Master, Your understanding of my heart is perfection in and of itself. It is why i give You every atom of my being, even unto the subatomic level... Master: :::folding away the paper::: Then it's sex. Slave: ::raising and throwing her arms up in touchdown form::: YESYESYES..Oh, Master of mine, You are truly the ultimate owner of my being!!! Master: oral sex. Slave: YESYESYESYES Master: You would like to give me oral sex. Slave: ::dropping arms to her sides to stare::: what? Master: Well, I thought that this time instead of me...you know...I might command you... Slave: ::gritting teeth::: MASTER....errr Master, Your memory being so much better and stronger than that of Your lowly slave, i =know= You recall how You show Your ultimate Mastery by satis...er...torturing Your property for hours on end. You recall how i shriek at Your touch? How i squirm in agony trying to escape? Master: Well, yes...there is a lot of squirming... Slave: ::leaping to her feet and jumping up and down::: Oh Master!! You punish Your slave to help her better serve You in the perfection of Your regard!! :::running into the bedroom, voice fading into the distance::: Let Your lowly slave suffer soon, Master!! Master: :::sighing deeply, turning off the TV and following his slave into the bedroom::: <<<2 hours later>>> Slave: ::::Lying back on the bed, one arm behind her head, legs crossed, slowly blowing smoke rings:: Oh Master, You are surely showing this one how to behave tonight. Master: ::lying on his back, chest heaving, sweaty hair matted to his head::: uhhh...uhhhh Slave: ::sighing and stretching ::: This lowly slave is so happy she learned on the web that everyone has their own unique way to share in the wondrous world of D and s... Master: uhhhhnn..uhhh Slave: ...and is so happy that her Master is so cruel and demanding and that she can offer herself totally to Him each and every day! Master: UHHH...uhhhh Slave: And Master? Master: uhh? Slave: ::looking deeply into His eyes, lower lip trembling::: It makes Your slave tremble in fear and longing to know that soon You will once again train Your slave to perfect obedience by denying her the pleasure of cooking dinner... Master: ::sighing:: uhhhhhhhhhhhnn

Mercnbeth -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 8:33:34 AM)
newflowers, See, first of all, beth is not my sub, she is my slave. A huge difference is my mind and hers. But for the purpose of answering you, I'll respond in terms of defining my perfect slave. Or what I was looking for when I posted an ad at another site almost three years ago. At first I was going to be contrite and a wise ass and answer the question regarding MY ideal or perfect slave with a picture of beth. But that would be a cheap cop out - not that beth's a cheap cop out, but that answer would be a 'cheat'. Before coming up to bed last night beth told me this question was there, and having a chance to "sleep on it" this is what I came up with. First, beth is demanding. Ha - bet you didn't think that would be on the list. she demands that I am consistent. Demands that I follow through. Demands that I enforce the rules I set for her and that we signed together when we began this journey. beth is selfless. she gave all she was to me. Gives every day all she is. she speaks in the third person (I know that's a sore point with some) not as any game or role play, but as a way to exhibit verbally what she has given spiritually and mentally. beth is trusting. Trust is the foundation. We both share the believe that there are no second chances with trust. It was important that we agreed that this aspect would be reciprocal. I trust beth without qualification. If you knew me, you would know that was no easy accomplishment. I'll leave it to beth to reply to how she feels in this aspect about me. beth is smart. We live as Master & slave 24/7. Even as sexual as we are, there is still a lot of time when we aren't having sex. At that point you have to relate to each other and enjoy talking with each other. beth is a "stay at home slave". I want beth to be at home, all the time. I want her to have one job - pleasing her Master. But I know, if she wanted to, beth could be CEO of a fortune 500 company. she has the intelligence to accomplish anything she puts her mind to. she stimulates my mind as much as my body. beth has a wonderful personality. Ummm, let me think how to put this....we have as much fun not having sex as we do having sex. Does that make sense? beth allows herself to have fun. That's not something that's easy. My business requires that she attend formal black tie functions - beth has fun at those. We have my employee visit or even travel with them - beth has fun. We watch Yankee games on TV - beth has fun. I think this is more important then others believe. Have you ever looked over at your partner while you were enjoying something only to see him/her yawn or have an "aren't we leaving soon" look on their face? Kind of spoils the moment right? Well, I've never seen that look in beth's eyes. beth accepts that I'm not jealous. Take a look at our picture, even in a vanilla environment beth gets a LOT of attention. Even with her clothes on! I guess it goes back to the Trust issue, when it happens I only smile. I enjoy having her on display. beth can keep up with me. I am an "A" personality type. Anything you enjoy is worth doing to excess. When we first met, beth used to ask for "time-outs", but either I'm slowing down or she's adapted. beth shares my enthusiasm for life. I enjoy new experiences. beth isn't afraid to try anything. beth is open and accepting. Whether it's of a new facet of the lifestyle or meeting new people. beth "is". she can never be compromised. All the physical, mental, and spiritual being of her is consistent. her morals, her beliefs, her political positions, hold up to any test. I never concern myself that beth will be anything different then the person I left at home in the morning when I return in the evening. No matter what Oprah says on her show, no matter what she reads on a website, no matter what her best friend tells her on the phone. beth is confident. she has as much confidence as I do! (Which is saying a lot!) Funny thing, she doesn't believe she has any. But I know better. It takes a confident person to know themselves enough to accept she is a slave, and then the strength of that confidence to carry it out. beth went through that difficult self evaluation process and came out the other end confident that she made the right decision. Even if it didn't turn out right with me, I know she would have continued. That defines confidence. For now, I'll let her believe she relies on my confidence for us both, but in a lot of respects mine comes from hers. beth is a lot of other things. Priority-wise they weren't quite as important to me as those I've mentioned above; but she is, sexy, provocative, flirty, extremely kinky, loves being nude, loves to be touched and petted, and wild. Since feminism has raised it's ugly head in this thread. (Ever hear the term 'menimism'?) Feminist equality? I didn't say so up there, but beth should be an example of the perfect feminist. she has the ability to be anything and she chose slavery to me. Feminist should fight for her right to do so, yet most would hold her up to ridicule. Funny thing, in a debate they would stand no chance with her. Equality is best defined by being given the opportunity to make a decision. Feminists want to make decisions but then have someone else suffer consequences for them. the prime example is children. It is unequal and unfair that men can't give birth. No law or constitutional amendment will change that. Feminists want to have careers and children but then have someone else care for them. The consequence, the children suffer, the business they work for suffers, and ultimately the feminists themselves suffer. My purpose in this post was two fold. I really was tired of the Dom bashing, and I really did want to point out how society in general has decided to show men as buffoons. Funny thing, why would any person want to be with anybody so perceived? What's that show about you? I am glad that your inquiry made it have a third purpose. I was glad to be able to document a little of why beth is so valuable, important, and special to me. Thank you!

subbiejenn -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 8:46:02 AM)
Lawrence Dear, i dont get Eldest child ? What is the advantage of that for a Dom? smiles ~jenn~

perverseangelic -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 9:19:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Estring Well, hopefully the younger feminists such as you have been able to get past the man hating agenda that has been pushed since the 70's. I don't believe that most feminists believe that men and women are equal. They believe that men are inferior to women. Talk to any woman that has taken any womens' studies class in college and they can tell you. Perverse, the fact that you and your friends don't buy into that is good to hear. I'm a woman's studies minor. I've taken more than my share of classes in women's studies. Though, at our Uni it's women and gender studies. Never -once- have I seen teacher express, even subtly, hate for men. Dislike for male-oriented systems, sure. However I have yet to have -anyone- assert, verbally, non-verbally, or in any way, that men are somehow inferior to women based on their gender. Too, though, my intro to women's studies class, we devoted 2 weeks to the ways that male gender norms inforce sterotypes in men. Have you read _The Feminine Mystique_? Published in 1963 it's viewed as one of the foundation texts for the feminist movement. It makes -no- assertions that either gender is supperior. Rather, it questions the systems which have held women in "traditional" roles, and argues for change against those -systems-, not against individuals or genders as a whole. yes, I -do- know some people who consider themselves feminists because they hate men, either because they were abused by them or had another very negative experience. However, even during the thick of the women's movement, I doubt you'd have found that, except in small groups and cells, the majority of the women invovled hated men as -men-. Too, I think if you went to any women's studies classroom in the US, you'd be surprised by what is being taught.

perverseangelic -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 9:27:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Since feminism has raised it's ugly head in this thread. (Ever hear the term 'menimism'?) Feminist equality? I didn't say so up there, but beth should be an example of the perfect feminist. she has the ability to be anything and she chose slavery to me. Feminist should fight for her right to do so, yet most would hold her up to ridicule. Funny thing, in a debate they would stand no chance with her. Equality is best defined by being given the opportunity to make a decision. Feminists want to make decisions but then have someone else suffer consequences for them. the prime example is children. It is unequal and unfair that men can't give birth. No law or constitutional amendment will change that. Feminists want to have careers and children but then have someone else care for them. The consequence, the children suffer, the business they work for suffers, and ultimately the feminists themselves suffer. As much as I hate to say it, I have to agree with you here 95%. This is something that bothers me a -lot- about modern feminism. Instead of saying "now that we've helped make it so women aren't -required- to behave a certain way, we should encourage them to behave as they choose" modern feminists seem to say "You aren't -required- to do that anymore, why are you doing it?" I'm working very actively to stop the negative stigma toward women who -choose- to remain in the home, or anywhere else that isn't "liberated." To me, it seems that the choice is important, not how the choice is excercised. To that effect, then, I applaud your girl as the ultimate feminist, because she knows her choices, knows what she could do, and made the one that suited -her-, though it could be said to be an unpopular one. About children- I'm an advocate of stay at home dad-ing as much as stay at home mom-ing. If a women has children and a career, why should -she- be the one obligated to stay at home? I think that men should see equal pressure to stay at home with their children.

baileythorne -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 10:43:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth <description of a great relationship> Wish I had met you both when you were up here for Folsom Fringe. You sound like just the kind of folks I'd like to add to my extended family. It was so wonderful to read what you wrote as this is the type of relationship I aspire to. --bailey

baileythorne -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 11:00:46 AM)
One comment, which I heard made at the Janus 30th Anniversary Banquet to honor Cynthia Slater, the founder of Janus (my appology if I don't get this 100% correct). Speaker: How to I find a good partner? Cynthia: Choose the two traits that are most important to you, only two. a week later... Speaker: I've thought long and hard, made a list, and chosen the top two. Now what? Cynthia: now choose 5 more a week later... Speaker: Ok, I have 5 more items on on list for the perfect partner. Now what? Cynthia: Look very hard at your list. Can you offer all of these things to your future partner? If not, get to work on yourself. Why would you expect someone to offer something to you that you can't return? ----- As an aside, it was a wonderful evening. I volunteered to be one of 6 who were "naked serving staff". We wore boots and bow ties, so I guess we weren't technically naked, but we were very busy. There were presentations on Saturday by Cleo & Fakir, Guy Baldwin, and Dossie Easton about our leather history and comments on the future. The slides Cleo & Fakir presented were sad in one respect because so many of the people in the photos died of AIDS. When Janus was created, no one knew what was killing so many or how to prevent it from spreading. Finally, there was a fantastic party at the Citadel and Janus rolled the prices back to 1974 for members: $5. I feel so fortunate to be living in San Francisco. --bailey

Estring -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 12:44:04 PM)
quote: About children- I'm an advocate of stay at home dad-ing as much as stay at home mom-ing. If a women has children and a career, why should -she- be the one obligated to stay at home? I think that men should see equal pressure to stay at home with their children. Another fallacy of feminism. Women were taught that they could be Supermom. They could have a career and raise kids and nothing will suffer. That is wrong. The children suffer. And as much as feminist will disagree, men and women are DIFFERENT. And one of the differences is that women are by nature better at raising children than men. Which is not to say that men aren't important. But women have been made to feel inferior because of their desire to be a stay at home mom. And I think that if it was financially possible, most women would choose to stay home and raise thier kids.

Hawkins -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 12:54:01 PM)
Estring Yet statistics in other areas (say Scotland, the first one I found when I Yahooed! it) show reported incidents have male agressors 90% of the time. It does happen both ways, and enculturation make men reporting abuse more difficult. But I've been hit by my ex-wife, I've had full-on contests of strength with women. I am an average size guy, 5'9", 150lbs, I don't do weights and all I know about marital arts is off TV. I can't recall 'hitting' anyone ever really (apart from once at a fancy dress party with a crop, when they deliberately spilled beer on me), I have known women who could whup me six ways before Christmas. But they are in a small minority. When women resort to violence the results are dramatically different. Most guys can knock most woman down with a single punch. The same is not true when a woman hits a man. That doesn't mean female violence against men is good (in abusive situations, natch). What it does mean is that the damage is greater to women, simply because by the time a boy is fourteen he is as strong as an average women ever will be. I wonder what the stats on visits to ER by victims of domestic violence look like when sorted by gender? The disparity of strength does mean women are more likely to use weapons than men, and this may mean that death is more likely at the hands of a woman. But day-in-day out systemic physical abuse with physical damage to an extent the person injured has to cover-up or not go out? That unfortunately most often happens with men as the abuser. And, culturally it is harder for a woman to leave children, if there are any. It's easier for men to leave in a situation like that. Again, it is not right, but a man hit by a woman will hurt less and be viewed less harshly for leaving any children, even if the reasons for him leaving are unknown to all but him and her. We might agree to differ, but I think the average female victim of abuse is worse off than the average male victim. Psychological abuse is one thing, unfortunately, where the sexes have achieved true equality. LadyAngelika I see doms or subs expressing disatifaction at times is natural. It's because subs may do it more often that some may think it is complaining. So I used 'complain' as that's how some may see it. I should have used quotes (as above) to make it clearer, good point. alljaded My Kate agrees with you. I think it's great to have a coffee arrive at my elbow, as I hear Kate come into the room and turn to ask her for... coffee; and it happens in deeper ways than that too. But it's not always like that. I just had to ask for beer! As to feminism... men are not 'equal' of women, nor are men 'equal' of men. We are different. It is natural. Our nature will ensure our lives are often different, but it should be equally possible for people of different sexes to have the same life, be it home-maker or President, if they have the desire and ability.

EStrict -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 1:03:08 PM)
::laughing:: well, I am glad that Master wasn't looking for a perfect anything,, nor was I. Personally, the main thing I look for in anyone I am having anytype of relationship with is that they be human. And in being human, that they have flaws, know they have flaws and are willing to admit their flaws. Merc, I love the way you describe Beth. I would hope that Master would use a lot of those same things in describing me Sir. Some he has, other's are not comparable because we do not do things the same way (such as 3rd person speach). But the thing I love Master most for is even though he had high expectations, he too was looking for a human. Someone who was not perfect, but someone who was honest and true, and showed a true desire to please....

Estring -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 1:07:58 PM)
quote: but someone who was honest and true, and showed a true desire to please.... Sandy, you probably got it right with that statement. We all have different wants and tastes in who we want to be with, but a sub/slave who is honest and true, and has a true desire to serve is as close to perfect as any Dom should need her to be.

BeachMystress -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/30/2004 2:37:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Estring The truth is, according to FBI crime statistics, there are just as many instances of domestic violence by women against men. And if you consider the stigma attached to males who are abused, many probably don't report it. As an example of this, Two nights ago a sub male friend of mine heard a woman shrieking to call the police. There were other noises, car door slamming, car leaving in a hurry. He decided that maybe calling the police was a good idea, and he did. He and a friend then went down to see what was going on and when the police showed up, the woman took a swing at one of the officers. It turned out what the situation was, was the husband grabbing the child and leaving because the mother was abusing it and him. We are not talking about a custody case. This man and woman live together. Or, at least they did. After the other night I sure hope he is filing for divorce and custody.

topcat -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/31/2004 2:56:54 PM)
quote: i dont get Eldest child ? What is the advantage of that for a Dom? Midear Jenn- Haven't got the slightest idea. I could guess, but reall, it is just on that list because when I look back over relationships that worked well for me, a significant number of them were with eldest children. Glasses/Contacts are on the list for the same reason, as are a few other points. stay warm, Lawrence

topcat -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/31/2004 3:19:25 PM)
quote: Wears glasses or contacts Is this a kinky thing? Milady A. (you marvelous madwoman)- An ex once claimed, tongue in check (I hope) that I 'always make passes at girls in glasses' because I like the idea that I can take her specs away, and she won't be able to see to run away. And as I think of it, I do like taking her glasses off before I kiss a girl- it's a little subtle prelude to taking her clothes off<g>, and one of those little, publicly acceptable, intimate things that I do find hot. and just for the record- Giant libido - oh yes- I have had women threaten to run away if I came home with viagra Twisted sense of humour -what's the best thing about fucking twenty eight year olds? [there's twenty of them] Capable of intellectual conversation -Hmm. I try- I aspire... Knows how to make a great Grey Goose martini -fill a rocks glass half full of vermouth/ add five olives/ let soak/Ice the glass/ ice the shaker/six count pour on the vodka/ shake/blot the glass dry/strain into glass/add olivesthree in the glass, one on the stirrer, last one pop in your mouth and pass to her with a kiss as you present the glass Does windows - do windows, mac, some linux Can deal with my insanity (Mwuah hah hah) - your insanity? adore it<g>. Stay warm, Lawrence

LadyAngelika -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/31/2004 6:54:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: topcat quote: Wears glasses or contacts Is this a kinky thing? Milady A. (you marvelous madwoman)- An ex once claimed, tongue in check (I hope) that I 'always make passes at girls in glasses' because I like the idea that I can take her specs away, and she won't be able to see to run away. And as I think of it, I do like taking her glasses off before I kiss a girl- it's a little subtle prelude to taking her clothes off<g>, and one of those little, publicly acceptable, intimate things that I do find hot. and just for the record- Nice. I get it now :) Giant libido - oh yes- I have had women threaten to run away if I came home with viagra Where have you been all my life! Twisted sense of humour -what's the best thing about fucking twenty eight year olds? [there's twenty of them] Twisted indeed! Capable of intellectual conversation -Hmm. I try- I aspire... I think you probably succeed Knows how to make a great Grey Goose martini -fill a rocks glass half full of vermouth/ add five olives/ let soak/Ice the glass/ ice the shaker/six count pour on the vodka/ shake/blot the glass dry/strain into glass/add olivesthree in the glass, one on the stirrer, last one pop in your mouth and pass to her with a kiss as you present the glass Now this is how one makes a Grey Goose martini! Does windows - do windows, mac, some linux Very funny. But yeah, computer literate helps! Especially for when they run my future Money Domme site where all the profits will secretly go to charity. Can deal with my insanity (Mwuah hah hah) - your insanity? adore it<g>. Awww shucks :) Stay warm, In Canada in November! Yeah right! Lawrence - LA

newflowers -> RE: Calling All Doms - Defining the "Perfect sub" (10/31/2004 7:14:55 PM)
Merc - Thanks for responding to my query. In the interests of lists, this is what I have determined the "perfect" sub to be (so far). demanding (real and true - she is and expects you to be also - not playing at being a slave/submissve) selfless/giving (behaviors that daily demonstrate acceptance of slave state) trusting trustworthy honorable (the "no second chances" put these three together - she trusts you and you her and neither by commission or ommission or careless act betray that trust of the other) smart (power in intelligence) Personality/fun secure in relationship (accepts that you are not jealous) active consistent (real and true slave - no pretense) confident secondary points - sexy, kinky, affectionate, high sex drive - etc. Those are Beth's qualities as I understand your post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And these are the qualities listed by Lawrence Eldest child Reads (reads a lot!) Wears glasses or contacts Likes sushi Likes motorcycles Artist of some sort- media doesn't matter, but the self expession skills do Demanding, powerful career track Adventurous spirit Self awareness Comfortable in her submission Exhibitionist Fit Petite (I enjoy a woman I can carry up a flight of stairs, or fling across the room onto the bed) Competent- not a person who can't assemble a bookcase without making it the building of the brooklyn bridge. a Welder (can't say why, but this has occured in two of the most wonderful women I have known) Big chewy nipples Affectionate Upbeat Passionate Multi-orgasmic Patient (if she has to deal with me, this is important) a bit needy- not as far as the point of clingly Girly/fem/whatever At this time, the commonalities are as follows: real/true intelligent active consistent affectionate sexy/sexual I list these as commonalities as there are some qualities listed that seem to be individual preferences. Understanding that the topic is now about feminism - are there any others who wish to add tot he list? newflowers P.S. - the reason there is no "manism" - we live in a partriarchal society with a long history of being patriarchal. It is only within the last several decades that the power has be questioned. Feminism seems a response to gaining a power balance between genders within society very specifically in the workplace. There may be areas in which the pendulum has swung to the far right and completely missed a middle groud, but there are still many areas in which there has been little movement at all. -a-

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