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How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for reproduct... - 5/24/2012 12:02:13 PM   
Blankpain


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/20/2010
Status: offline 		Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?

If we humans are alone in perversities, how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?
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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:01:00 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		When the first CaveDude pulled the hair of the first CaveSlut and dragged her off, she puddled. Thus was kink born.







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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:06:42 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Remember when Rae Dawn Chong gave the oral soothing salve to Uggs kicked in peener in Quest for Fire?


The rest, as they say, is history.  The actual kink is that we think it is kinky or not normal, animals such as we, and all others,  like to get there fuck on in non vatican approved ways.



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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:21:27 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain

Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?

If we humans are alone in perversities, how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?

How did literature evolve? To perpetuate the species?

How did music evolve? To create more children?

How did ice cream evolve? Does it help make us stronger?

We engage in a variety of activities for reasons other than perpetuation of the species.

Other species do a variety of things humans don't do. Why? Because they are different species.

As are we.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:30:20 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Remember when Rae Dawn Chong gave the oral soothing salve to Uggs kicked in peener in Quest for Fire?


Uhm... he wasn't kicked, dude... it was worse than that, much, much worse.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:36:43 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I remember watching two students once have a heated debate about the morality of oral sex.

"It serves no purpose!" exclaimed one, referring to having any role in reproduction.
"Oh, it has a purpose," retorted the other. "It's just not reproduction."

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 1:50:22 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Many people think Darwin's theory is based on survival of the strongest. It's not. It's survival of the most adaptable. Human beings reign supreme on this earth b/c we are the most adaptable species.

Now, if you view human behavior as merely a set of biological adaptions, then how precisely do you explain music, art, philosophy, literature? Surely these things are not necessary adaptions for our survival.

Reproductive success is supposed to be evolution's bottom line, and yet human sexuality has never been all about procreation. Want an example? Women desire sex most pre-period when they are least fertile.

(Other mammals signal their desire for sex when they are most fertile.)

We are still very much in the process of discovering why that is and what it means in terms of human sexuality and the evolutionary biology of our species. Latest theories are that human behaviors have evolved not merely for the purposes of survival, but also for the purposes of courtship. (And we are not the only species this is true of, note birds in the spring singing to attract a mate.)

So in answer to your question, kink evolved as an effective courtship ritual. The proof? Every single one of us have ancestors who managed through courtship to convince someone else to mate often enough to produce offspring.

No, you are not the first person to notice I have a weird take on things, thank you.






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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 2:29:17 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		Not just primates, but other animals too. Kink exists throughout the animal kingdom.

For example you get transgendered sheep, sadomasochistic ducks, 'submissive' killer whales..

But then again what is kink in itself if not deviation from the norm. What is the norm?

Animals exist for a bit more than just jiggy jiggy.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 2:44:51 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain

Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?

If we humans are alone in perversities, how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?


I think you are mixing D/s together with kink when you ask these things. D/s is seen in the animal kingdom...believe me, I've raised cats and mice and birds and other critters and each group of animals were no exception. I also spent hundreds of hours watching shows like Wild Kingdom.

Animals are also...perverts. I am NOT going into detail over this, you can look it up yourself. For some of the stuff I read...I cried buckets.

How would D/s courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival? Um, we call them families. Most traditional marriages involve the male becoming head of the house, the Dominant, while the female and children are his dependents, both financially and socially in the eyes of the community. Whatever keeps a family together so that the kids survive to adulthood to become parents themselves "ensures species survival".

As for kink "ensuring species survival", if this is seen as a mutual courtship activity by these couples, it is working for them to bond them together as a couple and to keep their family together. If tying mommy up and spanking her makes the hubby think she is hawt and stays interested in being with her, then their children benefit from having an intact family to protect them.

Having control over my man...what he gives up to me...fills emotional and physical needs we have. Why would someone else's non-kinky courtship and relationship dynamic have more validity than my own? I will help protect his family when I can, he will help protect mine...and together if we are lucky enough to have grandchildren, we will watch over these family members too.

Humans don't get together only to crank out babies, but to form families and to protect each other. My slave and I cannot have kids together, but each of us has adult children (mine has autism), elderly parents, etc. Sensual and/or sexual needs that didn't die along with our youth...maybe they weren't meant to be reserved only for babymaking couples, but as something to draw two people together...who would normally be too wrapped up in their own problems to be interested in complicating their lives further.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 3:51:48 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain
Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.

Looking at BDSM from a Darwinian perspective makes it easier to understand, not harder. Living things constantly engage each other in a power play for survival (and consequently, reproductive success). Some competitors gain their advantage by taking a submissive role, and some gain it by taking a dominant role. You don't see that connection between the natural world and BDSM, really? I sure do.

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?

Well, leaving the "perverse behavioral rituals" part well alone, I would say, yes, they do, and not just primates. I would characterize all sexual activity as a kind of D/s activity, and all the more so in nature where there's no so-called civilization to get in the way of brute instinct. Stella will have to explain what she means about the killer whales.

If we humans are alone in perversities,...

We're not, and if you can't tell, I wish you would stop using that word.

...how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?

Evolve, nothing. Like I said, it's been there, in nature, from the beginning. To the victor go the spoils, and all that.

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?

On the contrary, what evolved from this background of brutal power play was the social construct called "civilization", because sometimes choosing NOT to act like animals was what gave us humans OUR competitive advantage.


ETA: What makes two kinky people going at it different from two marmosets is their level of self awareness. Their motivations may be the same, the ritual may be the same, but the monkeys aren't smart enough to know that they're acting like animals, nor do they have any social mores telling them they SHOULDN'T, and they must not feel both exhilerated and guilty to break with those mores and behave like the beasts that they know deep down they are, but have spent their lives pretending they are NOT.

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 5/24/2012 4:41:30 PM >

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 4:53:49 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		Since when did mutual courtship behavior exclude D/s <---- that's what I'd like to know? Why do you feel, think or believe it does?

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 4:54:11 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain

Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?

If we humans are alone in perversities, how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?


Interesting OP. Good for you!!

The word 'perverse' carries moral bagage. Perhaps it has already been pointed out. It is not a biological term.

Secondly, your question assumes that kink is genetically determined. Maybe not. Maybe it is learned behavior.

Thirdly, not all genetic characteristics are necessarily the result of adaptation to environment. Some result from gene linked clusters.

Finally, your use of the word 'threat' suggests a misunderstanding of the process of adaptation. Darwin postulated a change in environment or the development of a niche such as new feeding opportunities, and then seperation of better adapted individuals from the less adapted. By migration for example.

Anyway, good post.


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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 5:49:18 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Firstly, why do you think what you do is perverse or wrong?
Is eating five alarm chili perverse?

If not, why not?
It causes burning sensation - pain. It can cause you to cry. What biological imperative does eating it serve over eating grubs and roast tubers?

What about watching horror movies? It causes you to feel fear, to scream, to have adrenaline coursing through your system. Does this serve a reproductive purpose? Is it perverse?

Why is it that adrenaline play is okay in any other of the senses but not sex? To me, someone who has not dealt with their conflicts over their sexuality is perverse.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 7:32:30 PM   
crwlon4


Posts: 47
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline 		This is an interesting post and something I have thought about. I don't believe there is a biological corollary to bdsm, especially play. Which is fine, and fascinating to me. If I accept that fact,the thought also comes to me that what if there was tops and no bottoms and vice versa? I don't mean to hijack the thread at all, but the fact that bdsm seems to have almost a perfect plug/outlet situation is remarkable, in my opinion.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 10:55:56 PM   
Pyramus


Posts: 397
Joined: 5/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
(Other mammals signal their desire for sex when they are most fertile.)


From what I've read, women evolved to entice men into sticking around (something very few mammals actually do) so that their offspring would be protected for the very many years it takes them to mature.

As for art, the discussion is beyond me, but Wikipedia (with all its flaws) discusses the sexual selection of culture in humans ... here's just one excerpt...

Sexual selection in human evolution

"Geoffrey Miller, drawing on some of Darwin's largely neglected ideas about human behaviour, has hypothesized that human culture arose through a process of sexual selection. He argues that cultural traits such as art, music, dance, verbal creativity and humour are of no survival value. Miller is critical of theories that imply that human culture arose as accidents or by-products of human evolution. He believes that human culture arose through sexual selection for creative traits."

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 11:09:57 PM   
Longerthanyou


Posts: 48
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyramus

Sexual selection in human evolution


I especially liked this paragraph in that article.

penis size may have been subject to natural selection, rather than sexual selection, due to a larger penis' efficiency in displacing the sperm of rival males during intercourse. A model study showed displacement of semen was directly proportional to the depth of thrusting as an efficient semen displacement device

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/24/2012 11:34:57 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		I think we need a demonstration.

Pam

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/25/2012 2:46:59 AM   
SexyThoughts


Posts: 180
Joined: 7/14/2011
Status: offline 		Because real life is not safe, sane or consensual?

Depending on who you talk to human beings are either sculpted by a God 6000 years ago. Or are hundred thousand years of ruthless evolution. Either way we rode to the moon on a spare weapons system that we originally built to achieve nuclear overkill. As a species we really like to be at the top of the food chain, be it over big tigers or tiny germs.

And this where submission comes in, since if we didn't fall into line under other people, and like it. We'd be their rivals and they'd have to kill us if they wanted to sleep soundly at night. Civilizations channel submission. Good civilizations darwinate the Civilizations that submit the wrong way
(Please include a letter from your tax dept saying they accept taxes apply only to people that aren't you, to any rebuttal you may make)

Being energised by pain is is a survival trait. Any genes whose reaction to pain in the middle of fighting or flighting, is a sitdown and a cry, are now fossilized sabertooth-tiger poo. People can walk to hospital with a knife stuck 2inches into them. Kinky knife play is that 2inches, delivered in 1mm installments



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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/25/2012 2:54:17 AM   
warlock1935


Posts: 66
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		As I recall, all complex organisms like us not only have a large variety of mix-and-match genetic material available, they throw off a small but continuous stream of minor mutations. That's to ensure species survival in the case of a catastrophe like a volcano or a new killer disease, etc.
Given that about 65% or more of our personalities are genetic, (see the Twins Studies) I'd say we're part of the normal variation of the species. The traits that make us, say, a bondage lover might have had some utility in the hunting & gathering, tribal societies we evolved in, or it might just be chance, like blonde hair.
It's also good to remember, even when we're talking about very short periods of time in evolutionary terms, we're still talking about 50,000 years or so in real terms; just one element, the weather, frequently changes in complex cycles as short as a hundred years. Evolution in higher animals isn't like an assembly line, it's more like a stretch of rapids - and as @ChatteParfaitt said, the more adaptable you are, the better. A lot of variability makes that easier.
IMHOP.
And has others have noted, most animal species have members who march to a different drummer - I had a gay cat once. Very strange cat.

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RE: How did kink evolve in our species? Is it for repro... - 5/25/2012 2:59:23 AM   
Destreid


Posts: 25
Joined: 11/15/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain

Understanding Darwinism, I fail to comprehend how kink evolved in humans.


I'm not sure you you do understand Darwinism. Or kink for that matter.

quote:

Do other primates engage in perverse behavioral rituals such as D/s activities?


By our standards, yes they do.

quote:

If we humans are alone in perversities,


We're not.

quote:

how/why would such mutual courtship behavior evolve to ensure species survival?


It was there from the start. "Vanilla" evolved out of "kink" to make us "civilized"

quote:

What was the threat that allowed us to evolve such complex perverse interactions?


You're assuming there was one. "kink" came first. Watch a nature program.

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