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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 3:40:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

It sometimes is about power.


Of course it's about sex (power).

quote:

Females rape as well.


With alarming frequency, new studies here say.

Most of the time, it's kids and others who can't fight back, but sometimes they do it with someone that can. For instance, in a recent case, one used threats of filing rape charges against the victim, telling him nobody would believe that it was the other way around, which worked for a few years of repeated rapes. In another case, three women teamed up to gang rape a guy here while filming it, and they got off the hook because he had an erection, which was taken as evidence that he was asking for it. And there have been several cases of women raping other women, though when targetted at adults it frequently seems to be intended to be an attack.

quote:

Hmmm, new question coming to mind...how would we handle women who rape?


Much as I'd like to suggest a radical clitoridectomy, in symmetry to LaT's suggestion about men, I'm thinking we put rapists of both genders in the same six person cells and let them teach each other about the errors of their ways. Or sell them both, maybe. Since we're on the subject of vengeance, I mean.

Or we could do what Norway does, which is prison with rehab and has very low relapse rates, providing many years of taxes.

quote:

My thoughts on the death penalty for rape was exactly what was posted, what if it is the wrong man/woman convicted?


Which is where vengeance automatically falls short. There's every reason to expect misconviction rates of about 1 in 4, both in the USA and in Norway, since both places use outdated and counterscientific approaches to investigation and evidence (although we are at least trying to fix that here, now).

I'm thinking LaT would be somewhat embarassed if she voted "decock" and the guy was found innocent later on.

quote:

But then again, there are wrongfully accused people in prison for different crimes.


Fix your prisons. Ours give us relapse rates of about 10% or so.

Being wrongfully imprisoned in Norway is livable, in the sense that you'll generally be able to go back to society and rebuild your life, although I do think we should have higher rates of compensation for the lost time (and consequences for both the system and the people involved in making the wrongful conviction, so as to reduce the likelihood of future wrongful convictions). Currently, you usually don't get more than about $20K or so for a few years in prison on a wrongful conviction here, although you do get some follow-up to help get you back on track.

Being wrongfully imprisoned in the USA normally destroys you as a person, and you end up having lost everything, not just time. No amount of compensation will ever come close to making it right, or even a case of "shit happens, moving on now". Since it's also counterproductive to society in the cases where people are rightly imprisoned, it should be a no-brainer to fix the prisons. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. Instead, the way it works now, if you're wrongfully imprisoned, you've a legitimate beef with society for actively attacking and essentially torturing you until you're no longer the same person, something that a decent person should respond to by a counterattack of some sort.

It's pretty rare to find people that aren't possible to rehab and reintegrate into society. Around here, we have "lifelong custody" as a non-punishment measure to confine those people so long as they are deemed an ongoing threat, whereas actual sentencing can never exceed 21 years (out of which the customary is to serve 14 years with good behavior). Normal sentencing generally leads to a net win by society of some $2 million GDP if you factor in the cost of keeping them in prison for the maximum sentence. The prisons hold less than a thousand people in lifelong custody, counting psychiatric custody (where the average stay is 3 years).

It may not satisfy the thirst for vengeance, but it's pretty damn healthy for society.

And healthy societies end up with less to avenge in the first place.

Not that I'd call ours healthy on other counts.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TNDommeK)
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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 3:53:39 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I am gonna wait on all the folks who come on death penalty threads and talk about how unreliable DNA is as a means to convict someone, to come here and scream how it should not be used to clear someones name. I mean, the shit aint reliable yanno.


You just need reasonable doubt to demonstrate that a conviction was wrongful, as that's the original burden of proof.

DNA is good evidence or counterevidence. It's just not as infallible as people think, s'all. On par with fingerprints.

If you want to get rid of DNA, a 60°C (140°F) bath will do the trick anyway, as far as I know. As such, you can pretty much expect that criminals that aren't acting out of sheer impulse will adapt if DNA becomes prevalent in making cases. And those that act out of sheer impulse are rarely deterred by the severity of the law in the first place, because it's not a rational process leading to it. Rape as a crime is most efficiently fought by having solid sex ed classes in school, and covering the subject of consent and responsibility there, as a part of establishing healthy, well informed and permissive-under-responsibility attitudes to sexuality. The whole DNA thing is most useful as a way to establish reasonable doubt, or to add weight to an existing case (if the victim went to have a kit done in time and the authorities handled the kit properly).

If memory serves, the largest study on it in Denmark indicates a pretty significant fraction of the male population will have raped at least once by the age of 28, which tells me the laws are less of an element than the attitudes. It also tells me we will have a pretty fucked up world if we start using gelding or the death penalty in all cases, as perfect persecution of everything that currently falls under the heading of rape would then result in scratching about 1/3 of the male half of the population (there is no correlation to indicate a deterrent effect). Work on the attitudes and you'll end up with a self solving problem instead.

I don't think you want the sort of social infrastructure that really makes DNA worth the effort as a tool to find and convict rapists.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 6:49:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Should we have the death penalty for rape? Well, if we get a case like this one...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/us/2-girls-are-found-alive-12-hours-after-kidnapping.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

quote:

2 Girls Are Found Alive 12 Hours After Kidnapping
By NICK MADIGAN
Published: August 02, 2002

Two teenage girls were abducted early today from a lovers' lane here by a gunman who raped them before he was shot to death by deputies about 12 hours later, the authorities said.

''The good news is that the girls are safe,'' Assistant Sheriff Larry Waldie of Los Angeles County told a throng of friends and relatives of the girls, 16 and 17 years old, at a command center here.

''Saving two lives is remarkable,'' Assistant Sheriff Waldie said, to sustained applause and some tears.

The crowd applauded again when the assistant sheriff said the suspect, Roy Dean Ratliff, was shot when he failed to get out of the Ford Bronco he was driving after being pulled over by deputies near Lake Isabella, about 100 miles north of here.

Mr. Ratliff, 37, was already being sought in another rape case.


...then I would say it closes the circle, nicely.

On the other hand, we live in world where it has been claimed that all sex is rape, that it is rape if the girl feels bad about it later, or even if she gives it up willingly while drunk. As pointed out in the Long Beach case, we can get "victims," who just flat make shit up.

Just in my ever so humble opinion, I would say that there are some rapists whose crimes rise to the sort of heinous level that merits the ultimate social sanction. More than a few Catholic priests should certainly qualify, for example.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 6:56:11 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Should accused rapists get a speedy trial

Sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
and an equally speedy execution if convicted?

Definitely not. It might cause them to murder their victims.
No, rapists need help. And some form of punishment and/or isolation from potential future victims.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 8:35:45 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Should accused rapists get a speedy trial

Sure.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
and an equally speedy execution if convicted?

Definitely not. It might cause them to murder their victims.
No, rapists need help. And some form of punishment and/or isolation from potential future victims.

And we need the ability to releas them from prison alive and unharmed (i.e. uncastrated) if they are found to be wrongly convicted - like the two men I cited in my OP.


_____________________________

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 8:46:07 PM   
TheHeretic


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Hi, Aswad. After reading your post about recidivism, and watching this Youtube video, I now have a new "Plan C" for retirement. It involves being convicted of some nasty muggings in Oslo.

It's not just our prisons here, but the subcultures of casual crime and violence that feed them, and the impact of our stupid damn drug laws on the judicial system.

Do you recall how they were defining "rape," for that study? By force, or does it include drunk girls who felt bad in the morning?

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 9:10:06 PM   
Karmastic


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FR-

NO!

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/25/2012 9:43:43 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


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Jeez... The hydrophobia is hip deep in this thread! I'll point out a comment made to me years ago by a rabid right-winger: 'If you establish the death penalty for rape, you give the rapist every reason to kill his victim as a potential witness.' Think about that one.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 6:06:56 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Fuck that.
If you can't grasp nuance, smileys are more than you deserve.


If I were to reply with "how droll" will my irony stock go up?

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 11:52:48 AM   
truckinslave


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I think most of these DNA-based exonerations are horse puckey. These may be corrections of true miscarriages of justice- especially Green. Recanted testimony is suspect for any number of reasons.

As for the question about the death penalty: No, rape should never carry the death penalty. It leaves no reason for these psychopaths to leave their victims alive. Which is why a non-lethal crime should never carry the death penalty.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 2:32:09 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I am gonna wait on all the folks who come on death penalty threads and talk about how unreliable DNA is as a means to convict someone, to come here and scream how it should not be used to clear someones name.

I mean, the shit aint reliable yanno.


While it is possible to be 100% sure that found DNA material does not stem from a suspect, you can not get a result that has a rate of 100% for the material stemming from a suspect.

But I am pretty sure that this was already pointed out to you in that thread.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 5:45:20 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
I actually agree with LaT. If a man's balls are cut off then he has no sex drive or desire to rape. But then again, not all rapist used their cocks. It sometimes is about power. Females rape as well. Hmmm, new question coming to mind...how would we handle women who rape? My thoughts on the death penalty for rape was exactly what was posted, what if it is the wrong man/woman convicted? So I'm not sure I would agree with death for that. But then again, there are wrongfully accused people in prison for different crimes. So I don't know what I would say.


Just sometimes? I thought it was pretty consistently about power.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 5:52:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I think most of these DNA-based exonerations are horse puckey.


Why?

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 6:10:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Just sometimes? I thought it was pretty consistently about power.


That was what I'd heard, too. I'm not sure that I was ever entirely convinced by that view, though.


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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 6:53:55 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Do you recall how they were defining "rape," for that study? By force, or does it include drunk girls who felt bad in the morning?


That is a decent question, my college defined rape in such a way that most sex counted.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/26/2012 8:11:04 PM   
Winterapple


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FR
Since rape involves someone taking overpowering another
through force or coercion it is always about power but it
can be about other things to like lust, anger or revenge.
It can be used as political torture or terror as has been
in the Congo and was used in Bosnia.
We shouldn't have the death penalty for any crime.
And no cutting off bits.
I don't want to live in a society where the peeping Tom
gets his eye put out, the liar gets his tongue cut and
the adultress can be tarred and feathered in the town
square. And that's pretty much what forced castration
is. This is the twenty first century.
I'm fine with castration if the rapist asks to be castrated.


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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/27/2012 4:12:50 PM   
Real0ne


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it is a trespass on the person and should be treated as such.

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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/28/2012 12:21:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Hi, Aswad. After reading your post about recidivism, and watching this Youtube video, I now have a new "Plan C" for retirement. It involves being convicted of some nasty muggings in Oslo.


If you're in the American middle class, plan C will probably raise your living standards.

Better hurry, though, before we're done building seperate prisons for non-citizens. Turns out a lot of people are spreading the word about plan C, so the populist Progressive Party put forth a plan for that, which the Labor Party rejected out of hand and criticized in the media. Then they gave it a little while for the dust to clear, approved the plan and started rolling it out discreetly. Until they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, anyway. Fortunately, the shooting in Finland and the one in Houla both arrived just in time to bury the story. The bottom line being you'll probably not have a plan C very long without getting to work on either the plan or the citizenship.

The prisons cover basic living costs, such as healthcare, dental, psych, etc., plus a monthly allowance of about $300 or so.

Some of the facilities are obviously shared, such as the library, gym and TV.

Does its job, and doesn't cost a dime on the balance.

quote:

It's not just our prisons here, but the subcultures of casual crime and violence that feed them, and the impact of our stupid damn drug laws on the judicial system.


Yeah, that's covered in school here.

The system in the USA being broken, I mean.

What we sadly don't cover, is how ours is. For instance, while the prison system is overall good, it has some really dark sides. Like, picture spending 2 years in complete isolation, not so much as a letter, except to speak to an interrogator for as long as your health can support, and then back to the tiny cell. No tape recordings of the interrogation. Psychological torture as the norm. Confessing is your way out.

Or how about we switch up the details of a young woman's experience being "interviewed" about a consensual activity with her new domly bf. A neighbour sees stuff through a partially drawn curtain. Calls police. Woman denies being raped. Neighbour files charges on her behalf (that's legal here). Police pick her up for an interview. Not taped. Paraphrasing the off the record interview: «Are you really so worthless that you wanted him to piss on you? What will your friends and family think when we tell them what he's done? And what will they think of you if you won't admit it was rape?»

Sound like a perfect way to end an otherwise excellent night of exploring your kinks with budding confidence and a trusted partner, right?

I very recently learned some things I do want to know, but still feel the desire to unknow. That this isn't just one incident was one of those things. Sheesh. I wonder how many have caved after a few hours of those kind of "interviews" and how many have been remanded to the psych ward to treat their "denial of the facts" (i.e. the unsubstantiated hypothesis of the officer in question, who may be as open-minded as Fred Phelps). It sheds a whole new light on some really suspect cases I've seen popping up occasionally.

Ironically enough, such details have been essentially closed to the public until the 7/22 trial. Never has so much dirty laundry been aired in public here, and never has it been so conveniently easy to bury it again afterwards. I mean, compared to the mix of suffering, heroics and tragedy that transpired, it is easy to forget that there's more. I pay close attention to the trial precisely due to the fact that people are testifying under oath as to the actual practices of our various systems, and to what people mention when they write their opinion pieces and feature stories, and what transpires in the public debate.

When the limelight is on, the audience is naked. So I watch the audience. I don't much pay attention to the stage itself. The actor is boring and well within the normal variation range of the population on all counts, except for having the will and discipline to turn his ideas into harebrained schemes that he put into practice instead of acquiescing with occasional complaints in less polite company, and the altruism (perverse, isn't it?) to sacrifice himself in the process. Tragic that the only good qualities he had were the ones that originated his horrific crimes.

In the broader perspective, I'm left with a sinking feeling that there are a lot of easily avoidable and painfully silent tragedies. Those don't get the media fanfare and memorials and statues. People's lives are being destroyed by those charged with protecting them. Which is pretty much the thing that causes some of the more grievous of chronic mental health issues. Granted, it's not the same thing as incestuous abuse, but we're still talking about people faced with a disporportionately powerful and authoritative protector figure attacking them and the people they care about with no discernable rhyme or reason from the victim's perspective. There are more problems of this sort here than I had thought, and after a while in the field of spotting system level defects and pointing them out, I'm pretty jaded about how much crap a system can have. It may a professional skill, but I don't leave my eyes shut on my spare time. We're all professionals as citizens, and that job doesn't have anyone picking up the slack if we don't. Now if only I could tell this "customer" that a replacement will be less painful.

quote:

Do you recall how they were defining "rape," for that study? By force, or does it include drunk girls who felt bad in the morning?


Sexual remorse wasn't yet legally considered rape at the time of the study, as I recall, but it wasn't limited to stranger rape (very rare here).

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/28/2012 4:12:29 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Do you recall how they were defining "rape," for that study? By force, or does it include drunk girls who felt bad in the morning?


That is a decent question, my college defined rape in such a way that most sex counted.

Did any legal precedents agree with your college, or were they just full of shit?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? - 5/28/2012 4:23:10 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Do you recall how they were defining "rape," for that study? By force, or does it include drunk girls who felt bad in the morning?


That is a decent question, my college defined rape in such a way that most sex counted.

Did any legal precedents agree with your college, or were they just full of shit?


At one of my ex colleges there was notice pinned up that said "Sexual harassment is whatever *you* define it to be" Some wag had written underneath, "This notice is sexually harassing me."

College authorities can get very energetic these days about such things. We live in a litigious world.


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