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Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 4:20:26 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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My mom came to live with me about 4 months ago. She lost most of her independence, her home, her cats. She brought her 14 y/o dog with her, who died around 2 weeks after moving here. She was so horribly depressed, I took her to look at some puppies. Of course she fell in love and brought a female Blue Heeler home with us. Not the ideal dog for a sick old woman, but my son has agreed to walk and exercise her. As it turns out, the 14 y/o dog she had that died was a Blue Heeler, and that dog was absolutely perfect with my mom. Loving, attentive, gentle.

This puppy is the absolutely most agressive dog I've ever seen. She's just being playful, but the more aggressive you get telling her NO, the more aggressively playful she gets in response. The only thing that has worked with her is a spray bottle of water. She hates it, and corrects her behavior for that moment but it doesn't deter her from returning to her aggressive playing. My mom is covered in little bites and scratches.

Now. I'm seriously considering a professional trainer for the dog, but she's only 12 weeks old. I'm not really sure what age is best.

I'll be looking around and talking to a trainer etc. but I thought I'd also post here since I know we have some fabulous dog owners who know stuffs!

This puppy is adorable. Everyone loves her. She makes my mom happy. My only concern, is I just can't and won't tolerate a biter.

Any ideas? Tips?

WinD

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 4:32:37 PM

DomKen

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How old was the puppy when she was seperated from her mother? In general 12 weeks is considered the best age for it.

A 12 week old is just entering the age where training can be expected to take hold.

Australian Cattle Dogs (ie. blue or red heelers) are smart and very energetic with extremely strong herding instincts. You have to provide training along with varied activities or the dog will get bored and bored dogs can be destructive and out of control.

If you don't have herd of cattle or sheep for her to herd she is going to need a lot of exercise and attention through her first several years.

parenthetically and not attacking anyone, why do people think working breeds make good pets? Is it Lassie? Maybe we need a TV show about a smart and loyal bichon frise?

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 4:59:00 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How old was the puppy when she was seperated from her mother? In general 12 weeks is considered the best age for it.

A 12 week old is just entering the age where training can be expected to take hold.

The puppy was 8 weeks old.

quote:

Australian Cattle Dogs (ie. blue or red heelers) are smart and very energetic with extremely strong herding instincts. You have to provide training along with varied activities or the dog will get bored and bored dogs can be destructive and out of control.

If you don't have herd of cattle or sheep for her to herd she is going to need a lot of exercise and attention through her first several years.

parenthetically and not attacking anyone, why do people think working breeds make good pets? Is it Lassie? Maybe we need a TV show about a smart and loyal bichon frise?

I understan completely what you are saying, and agree. I didn't even know what a Blue Heeler was, until I got her home and looked it up. My first instinct was to suggest we return the puppy and look for an ankle biter or something. However, my mom was so happy, for the first time in months, I just couldn't take that away from her.

I don't have cattle, but I very often have toddlers and small grandchildren. Maybe she'll enjoy herding the grandbabies in the back yard.

The puppy gets lots of attention, and spends her days 'herding' (annoying) my hound. My son hunts and fishes, and the puppy will bet plenty of exercise and love. I hope I can do what's best for my mom AND the puppy.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/1/2012 5:00:03 PM >

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 5:12:27 PM

DomKen

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I'm betting if you don't put a lot of time in training her not to you will start finding your grandkids in a corner of the yard with a content heeler flopped on the grass hoping one makes a break for it.

You should keep an eye on her till you break the biting thing. Herding dogs are known to nip things they're herding if not trained not to. Grandbabies should not get that treatment.

What will likely be best for the puppy is lots of time running around chasing stuff and eventually being trained to do stuff. It doesn't have to be herding BTW the breed is known to make great frisbee dogs for instance.

My concern is how much companionship she will provide for your mother. I think you're in for some tight rope walking until the puppy is grown and relaxes some.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 5:27:18 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Ohh no! I was just kidding, but actually now that you bring that up, I will definitely play very close attention to any nipping of the babies. So far, she's been very well behaved around the toddlers.

She has been very loving toward my mom, who had her paper trained in a week. The puppy sleeps with her and plays with her. The main concern is she likes to nip and bite (her way of playing). Mom keeps her water bottle in her pocket, but the puppy seems to have short term memory issues worse than mine!

Maybe instead of a regular trainer, I should consider service dog training for her.

ETA: I am afraid you may be right about the tight-rope walking. I believe that a dog can be happy, if loved and trained. She may not have cattle or sheep but I'm wiling to work around that. I'm always aware that she probably needs more training than I know how to give her, so I'm willing to pay (my mom is too) to get help. Yes, the show Marley comes to mind right about now.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/1/2012 5:35:35 PM >

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 5:34:24 PM

kalikshama

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My Mom has an Australian Sheep Dog who was trouble in the beginning and Mom thought she'd have to bring her back. That was 13 years ago :)

She did take her to a trainer, and implemented some tips from the Monks of New Skete
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-Puppy-Revised/dp/0316083275/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338596860&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Canine-Monks-Happy-Obedient/dp/1401309259/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338596860&sr=1-3

but I think the key was lots and lots of exercise. Both breeds are working dogs. My Husky (another working dog) also had behavior problems until R started taking him to dog park during the day in addition to the AM and PM walk I gave him. The AM walk was 1/2 mile and the PM walk up to 2 miles, depending on the weather.

So lots of exercise should calm her down, plus check out Cesar and Victoria for the biting.

You can do it!

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 5:44:51 PM

MercTech

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That pup is going to be aggressive until over a year old at least.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 5:54:53 PM

TNDommeK

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Spray bottle, and stay on point with it. No matter what. Keep using the spray bottle, it will eventually work long term.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 6:22:46 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Thank you, Kalikshama, for the links and encouragement! I'm definitely going to look into buying those books.

MercTech, I am patient and willing to work with the aggressive behavior. I don't expect her to behave overnight. I just need her to not bite. That is very important to me, and very important for her to learn for her own safety and well being.

TNDommeK, I wasn't sure about the spray bottle at first. It seemed a little mean to me, but I concede to being wrong there. It is working the best, so far.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 9:22:10 PM

Musicmystery

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Winsome, when my husky was a pup, and very aggressive and very strong, I created a game.

"Play!" and she would go nuts, jumping, wrestling, "attacking", until I said quietly "Enough," and she would sit, expectantly. Then "Play!" and she went nuts again, until "Enough." Back and forth. It was funny to watch. But the game taught her to be quiet, while still letting her be the wild pup she was.

You don't need to copy this model, of course. The point is something that allows puppy energy and fun while teaching socialization skills.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/1/2012 10:40:17 PM

Iamsemisweet

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I have had herding breeds, and only herding breeds, for years. Belgians Sheepdogs and Tervurens, Border collies, and German shepherds. I haven't had heelers, but I have been around a lot of them, and they are very similar to Border Collies.
The reason I like herding breeds is that I like to compete in various sports, like herding, competitive obedience and especially agility. Bottom line, though, is that those kinds of breeds have to have a job, or they will make one, and you almost certainly will not like it. If you aren't willing to exercise their minds as well as their bodies, those breeds become destructive and sometimes dangerous.
Do not, do not, do not let the dog start herding your grand kids. Heelers' instinct is to nip at ankles, not exactly what you want happening to children. If you aren't willing to put the time into this puppy, it probably is not going to be a suitable breed for you. Just my opinion, based on years of experience with training herding breeds.
My Love raises and trains labrador retrievers. They are like a completely different species from my herding dogs.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 6/1/2012 10:54:54 PM >

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 4:51:30 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Is the dog being cage or crate trained?

I highly recommend this method, for both the dog and the owner. Even young dogs *want* to obey, they just have so much energy and enthusiasm, it's hard for them to keep the basics in their brains.

Putting them in their crate when you don't want to deal with them gives you a break from the constant having to watch their every move which you need for training to be effective.

With toddlers around I would think it essential. This dog could easily decide the toddlers are her pack and she's the alpha.

Best, CP

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 1:40:05 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

Do not, do not, do not let the dog start herding your grand kids. Heelers' instinct is to nip at ankles, not exactly what you want happening to children.

Reba gets anxious when her herd is scattered through the house but fortunately this manifests through whining and body language rather than nipping.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 3:46:34 PM

PurePleasure2

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The puppy could be teething. I found Kong toys to be the best and more durable for my 4 dogs. When the pup starts chewing on humans, a sharp no and giving something that she's allowed to chew on should help get her through this phase.

Also, some puppies are known as "pirahana puppies", and will bite or chew on EVERYTHING. They will grow out if it eventually.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 4:41:04 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Why do you consider it aggression, when she is just doing what she was bred to do? Heelers were bred to heel cattle. It would be like expecting a retriever not to retrieve. Take her to agility class and give her an outlet for her energy. Or, better yet, herding class. You might be surprised how available this stuff is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Thank you, Kalikshama, for the links and encouragement! I'm definitely going to look into buying those books.

MercTech, I am patient and willing to work with the aggressive behavior. I don't expect her to behave overnight. I just need her to not bite. That is very important to me, and very important for her to learn for her own safety and well being.

TNDommeK, I wasn't sure about the spray bottle at first. It seemed a little mean to me, but I concede to being wrong there. It is working the best, so far.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 5:03:30 PM

angelikaJ

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At 8 weeks she was prematurely separated from her mother.

Biting is kind of a common trait because dog-mom did not teach her good puppy manners.

There is a whole realm of dog-to-be-etiquette that gets missed when they leave mom and litter mates too soon, and one of those things they learn is "bite inhibition".

http://www.doggonesafe.com/teach_puppy_not_to_bite

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_BiteInhibition.php

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/teachingbiteinhibition.pdf

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 7:08:56 PM

stellauk

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Dogs are pack animals and it seems that the dog is treating everyone as its equal, hence the aggression in play. You can correct this by getting the dog to lay down and whilst leaning over it firmly tweak or (somewhat more gently) bite one of its ears so as to cause discomfort. The dog should respond by rolling over and displaying a submissive posture (on its back with front paws raised).

Your posture whilst doing this is important, and if speaking to the dog during this time be sure to speak in a firm, but low voice. This prevents the dog from misunderstanding what you are doing as play and also maintains that bond of trust between you both. (General note - this should only be done to discipline medium and larger dogs and not small dogs due to the greater size difference between a human and a small dog).

Biting and aggression are unacceptable in any human-dog relationship. In tweaking or biting one of the ears you are communicating in canine terms that such behaviour is unacceptable. This is no different from a dog giving you or a child a nip when one of their boundaries have been reached.

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/2/2012 8:43:51 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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IAMSEMISWEET: When I say aggressive, I meant aggressively playful. When told no, she'd growl and nip harder; especially if you raise your voice to her. I've never had a dog do that, when told no. Usually they look guilty and upset at being fussed at. This puppy just growls louder eand bites harder. I was only joking about her herding the grandbabies, but was glad the concern was raised, because while joking I hadn't considered how this might actually be a serious concern. I was glad to have had that pointed out, and appreciate your reitterating the same. I definitely will be diligent in regards to this, because I don't want my grandbabies nipped or bit and I don't want our puppy to get into trouble or unfairly pegged as dangerous.

MusicMystery: Thank you for that tip! I have a long rope like toy, that I started using and saying "Play," she very quickly learned it was ok to bite and tug at that, not so much toes and fingers. It is strange how much better she is in just 2 days. She really is a very smart dog. She's a bit slower at learning the word, "Enough." That's ok, I have faith in her and don't expect her to be trained in a day.

Purepleasure: We have been using the water bottle at times she's nipping at feet and hands, then showing her the toy. She's learning very quickly, that nipping gets negative attention but toys gets playful fun.

StellaUK: I haven't pinched or bit her ear, although when she growls and nips at me, I have placed her into a submissive position (on her back with my hands lightly at her throat.) She fought at first, but now she is accepting of it, and welcomes the tummy rubs she gets when she submits. My mom didn't like this, and thought I was just scaring her, but she sees how much better her puppy behaves so she doesn't fuss at me now for doing it.

Angelikaj: I've only had older puppies, myself. My dog joined our family at 8 months. I was afraid 8 weeks seemed awful young, and always heard that the momma teaches the puppies a great deal. Right now, she's adopted my dog, Axel, as her surrogate mom (Or dad) and follows him everywhere. He has been very patient with her and I think he's more responsible for teaching her not to nip and bite, than my mom or I can take credit for. Thank you for the links! I'm bookmarking them to read tomorrow.

ChatteParfaitt: I spoke to my mom about crating her puppy, and she said she has been considering that already and plans on getting a crate. Thank you for the advice.

Exercising her has really helped. Oh boy, did she fight the leash at first, until she realized she LIKED being outside. Getting her back in the house has been our most recent struggle. Now she's eyeing the door every time someone comes in and out, as if she is waiting to be taken out with them (or possibly planning her escape!) Axel brings us his leash when he gets tired of waiting to be walked, and once when he was wearing his leash the puppy picked up the end of it and started walking Axel herself. She's quite a character and I'm loving and enjoying her more and more every day.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/2/2012 8:50:35 PM >

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/3/2012 12:53:34 AM

Karmastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Why do you consider it aggression, when she is just doing what she was bred to do? Heelers were bred to heel cattle. It would be like expecting a retriever not to retrieve. Take her to agility class and give her an outlet for her energy. Or, better yet, herding class. You might be surprised how available this stuff is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Thank you, Kalikshama, for the links and encouragement! I'm definitely going to look into buying those books.

MercTech, I am patient and willing to work with the aggressive behavior. I don't expect her to behave overnight. I just need her to not bite. That is very important to me, and very important for her to learn for her own safety and well being.

TNDommeK, I wasn't sure about the spray bottle at first. It seemed a little mean to me, but I concede to being wrong there. It is working the best, so far.

THIS!

Also...

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Dogs are pack animals and it seems that the dog is treating everyone as its equal, hence the aggression in play. You can correct this by getting the dog to lay down and whilst leaning over it firmly tweak or (somewhat more gently) bite one of its ears so as to cause discomfort. The dog should respond by rolling over and displaying a submissive posture (on its back with front paws raised).

Your posture whilst doing this is important, and if speaking to the dog during this time be sure to speak in a firm, but low voice. This prevents the dog from misunderstanding what you are doing as play and also maintains that bond of trust between you both. (General note - this should only be done to discipline medium and larger dogs and not small dogs due to the greater size difference between a human and a small dog).

Biting and aggression are unacceptable in any human-dog relationship. In tweaking or biting one of the ears you are communicating in canine terms that such behaviour is unacceptable. This is no different from a dog giving you or a child a nip when one of their boundaries have been reached.

^^ this
I don't want to sound curt, but it's not the dog that needs training, it's the owner. I think proper exercise as Iamsemisweet suggests, and establishing alpha "dominate" (heh heh) will cure most of the issues. Good luck!

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RE: Aggressive Puppy Concerns - 6/3/2012 8:09:41 AM

kalikshama

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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

it's not the dog that needs training, it's the owner.

Yes, that's the underlying principle to all the Victoria and Cesar shows

(in reply to Karmastic)

Post #: 20

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