Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 5:49:54 AM)

On another thread, Lance got me thinking:

quote:

Mainstream BDSM? You bet. But do NOT get carried away until DSM-V comes out in May, 2013. The current DSM (Diagnostic and Statisical Manual) still lists BDSM under the paraphilias (paraphilea ?). DSM is the 'bible' of the psych profession and is used LEGALLY!

Until homosexuality was removed from DSM-III by publishing DSM-IV, gays had huge problems. Some men commited suicide rather than live with the title of "mentally ill." Well, it was more that they were forced there.....

On a lighter note, you ALL need to show your faces in the Leather contigencies of the Gay Pride Parades coming up at the end of June - exact dates vary by city. It's a "Thank You," but more importantly, you'll get an idea of what comes next...... LOL!

"What comes next, Lance?" you ask..... Well, sodomy laws fell at the Supreme Court by hard work of gays. Next up? Removal of other oppressive "bedroom" laws. "Fixing" BDSM is more tricky since we MUST leave abuse laws in place.

Easiest way to make this all happen? Cash to support the fine folk at https://ncsfreedom.org where NCSF = National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. They are working at ALL levels, especially getting the right laws IN and the wrong laws OUT. They file aminus curie briefs <friend of the court> and on and on.


I think we've come a long way in the BDSM Psychological categorization and have been comfortable with the wording in the DSM-IV-TR, bolded below, but would like to hear others' perspectives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdsm#Psychological_categorization

With the publication of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) in 1994 new criteria of diagnosis were available describing BDSM clearly not as disorders of sexual preferences. They are no longer regarded as illnesses in and of themselves. The DSM-IV asserts that "The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors" must "cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" in order for sexual sadism or masochism to be considered a disorder. In an AASECT article providing guidelines for therapists working with BDSM clients, sexologists Charles Allen Moser and Peggy Kleinplatz highlight that distress can occur in BDSM patients due to stigma and discrimination surrounding BDSM, and that in these circumstances the role of the therapist is to "validate the distress rather than to "cure" the BDSM desires."[88]

The DSM-IVs' latest edition (DSM-IV-TR) further requires that the activity must be the sole means of sexual gratification for a period of six (6) months, and either cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" or involve a violation of "consent" to be diagnosed as a paraphilia.[89]




Reform -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 9:23:23 AM)

I think it should be removed. I did my senior paper for college about students perspectives of BDSM as seen in the media and found most were under the impression it makes one sick to do it, or those who are sick do it. This line of thinking stems directly from the DSM, whether they are aware of it or not. It's just like with being gay; or at least I see the similarities, and those similarities were part of the focus of my paper. If someone is having "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" then I would think that distress is the problem, not BDSM itself. Keeping it in there conflates those who do have problems and those who do not.




CalifChick -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 10:27:07 AM)

I would disagree that the distress is the problem. "Normal" (c'mon everyone, jump on that) BDSM activities do not cause distress and don't meet the criteria to be an illness. What is an illness is where you are calling in sick to work so that you can do those activities, where you are spending money on those activities instead of the mortgage and food, etc. What is the illness is when YOU are not dealing with your desires in a healthy way. Hell, we could drop 90% of the DSM and call it "unhealthy handling of things", but the ethics of diagnosing raise an eyebrow regarding that level of nonspecificity.

Edited to add: People are uneducated as to what "being in the DSM" means. They think it means the mere presence of something in the DSM makes it an illness, and do not bother to read the definition of WHEN it becomes a diagnosable illness. Drinking alcohol is not a problem until it BECOMES a problem, yet no one has championed removing that from the DSM.

Cali




littlewonder -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 10:49:41 AM)

I agree completely with cali.




sincelo -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 11:15:00 AM)

Two for cali yup.




Reform -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 11:51:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

What is the illness is when YOU are not dealing with your desires in a healthy way.

Edited to add: People are uneducated as to what "being in the DSM" means. They think it means the mere presence of something in the DSM makes it an illness, and do not bother to read the definition of WHEN it becomes a diagnosable illness. Drinking alcohol is not a problem until it BECOMES a problem, yet no one has championed removing that from the DSM.

Cali



Agreed. That's what I was referring to when I agreed with the "distress" part of the definition. Distress is just a generalized way of saying that it interferes with your life (and thus causes distress).

The difference between drinking alcohol is that it is widely understood as normal... until it becomes a problem (alcoholism). Whereas people see BDSM to be a problem in itself, and not as normal until it becomes a problem. This is why I feel it should be taken out, it causes confusion in the general population and leads to people pathologize something that should be seen as normal, exactly how homosexuality was.




Nosathro -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 12:08:58 PM)

When I was in Grad School the DSM IV first came out.  In some classes we talked about all the things in it and but many of them felt BDSM should remain.  I got the feeling, simce most of the objection came from women, was that many thought it had something to do with sadism.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 3:22:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reform


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

What is the illness is when YOU are not dealing with your desires in a healthy way.

Edited to add: People are uneducated as to what "being in the DSM" means. They think it means the mere presence of something in the DSM makes it an illness, and do not bother to read the definition of WHEN it becomes a diagnosable illness. Drinking alcohol is not a problem until it BECOMES a problem, yet no one has championed removing that from the DSM.

Cali



Agreed. That's what I was referring to when I agreed with the "distress" part of the definition. Distress is just a generalized way of saying that it interferes with your life (and thus causes distress).

The difference between drinking alcohol is that it is widely understood as normal... until it becomes a problem (alcoholism). Whereas people see BDSM to be a problem in itself, and not as normal until it becomes a problem. This is why I feel it should be taken out, it causes confusion in the general population and leads to people pathologize something that should be seen as normal, exactly how homosexuality was.


Chalk up another vote for cali.  The majority of people who feel the way they do about BDSM don't feel that way because of the DSM.  In fact, many of those people have no idea what the DSM is, so it really makes BDSM's appearance in the DSM irrelevant to people's opinions about it.

Sadly, homosexuality is not yet completely seen as "normal," but progress towards that is being made every day.  However, comparing homosexuality and BDSM doesn't make sense, especially since you are stemming your comparison from the DSM.  Homosexuality was removed from the DSM because physical science was able to show that it was something people were born being, not something they choose or feel compelled to participate in.  Huge difference.  Homosexuals are not choosing to be homosexual, but like it or not, a person can choose to participate in BDSM or not. 

Think more of comparing BDSM to a sex addict.  Sex itself is not an illness, and is widely considered "normal."  However, nymphomania, necrophelia, porn addictions are not considered normal.




Muttling -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 3:38:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

When I was in Grad School the DSM IV first came out.  In some classes we talked about all the things in it and but many of them felt BDSM should remain.  I got the feeling, simce most of the objection came from women, was that many thought it had something to do with sadism.




Given that the title includes the phrase "sado- masochism", I would think it's reasonable o conclude it has something to do with sadism.

This said, a masochist like myself finds his perfect partner is a sadist. The confusion is trying to explain the love, caring, and deep connection that comes with a healthy S/m relationship to a vanilla. They don't realize that nipple biting, dinky restraints, and rough sex (which all of the vanillas engage in) only differ from S/m in the intensity.

It just like the conservative support of anti-sodomy laws. They're ALL for it then go home and perform/ receive oral sex which is a form of sodomy.




ResidentSadist -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 4:07:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I would disagree that the distress is the problem. "Normal" (c'mon everyone, jump on that) BDSM activities do not cause distress and don't meet the criteria to be an illness. What is an illness is where you are calling in sick to work so that you can do those activities, where you are spending money on those activities instead of the mortgage and food, etc. What is the illness is when YOU are not dealing with your desires in a healthy way. Hell, we could drop 90% of the DSM and call it "unhealthy handling of things", but the ethics of diagnosing raise an eyebrow regarding that level of nonspecificity.

Edited to add: People are uneducated as to what "being in the DSM" means. They think it means the mere presence of something in the DSM makes it an illness, and do not bother to read the definition of WHEN it becomes a diagnosable illness. Drinking alcohol is not a problem until it BECOMES a problem, yet no one has championed removing that from the DSM.

Cali



Jesus . . . where do I start? How about the old (20-Mar-2005) APA symposium on removal of paraphilias from DSM, they said it all quite well.

American Psychiatric Association holds symposium on removal of paraphilias from DSM

At its annual convention in May, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) held a symposium to discuss removing gender identity disorder and the paraphilias from the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Paraphilias are defined as recurrent and intense sexual feelings or behavior which involve nonhumans, children, or nonconsenting adults, or the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner.1 They include pedophilia, exhibitionism, fetishism, transvestism, voyeurism, and sadomasochism.

The convention was held May 19 in San Francisco. At the symposium, psychiatrist Charles Moser of the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality and Peggy Kleinplatz of the University of Ottawa presented a paper entitled "DSM-IV-TR and the Paraphilias: An Argument for Removal."

Media publicity of the symposium was minimal. No information is available at the APA website, and the only reports on the symposium came from the Cybercast News Service (CNS)2 and the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH).3 NARTH is an organization of therapists who practice therapy intended to help homosexuals change to heterosexuality.

According to CNS, Moser and Kleinplatz argued that people whose sexual interests are unusual or culturally forbidden should not necessarily be labeled as mentally ill. Because different societies stigmatize different sexual behaviors, and research cannot distinguish people with paraphilias from those with more common sexual feelings, there is no reason to diagnose the former as psychologically unhealthy.

According to NARTH, Moser and Kleinplatz wrote that the APA defines a mental disorder on the basis of direct, observable evidence of its disabling effects. Since people with "sexually unusual" interests may be not be distressed or disabled by them, there is no justification for classifying them as disordered. Labeling their conditions as "pathological" only fuels social discrimination which can lead to psychologically damaging distress.

Moser and Kleinplatz concluded that "the situation of the paraphilias at present parallels that of homosexuality in the early 1970s. Without the support or political astuteness of those who fought for the removal of homosexuality, the paraphilias continue to be listed in the DSM."

CNS also notes that while the APA's fact sheet on pedophilia says, "An adult who engages in sexual activity with a child is performing a criminal and immoral act that never can be considered normal or socially acceptable behavior," it fails to address whether pedophilia is a mental disorder.

Moser and Kleinplatz are not the only scholars to suggest the removal of pedophilia from DSM. In the December 2002 issue of the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, noted sexuality researcher Richard Green made a similar argument.4 Researchers and practitioners whose comments were published in the journal were divided on the issue.

Robert Spitzer, author of a study on change of sexual orientation for homosexuals, participated in the APA symposium, arguing for continued inclusion of gender identity disorder and the paraphilias in DSM. He considered the proposal to remove the paraphilias outrageous and believed such removal was unlikely to happen.

According to NARTH, he argued that "The paraphilias, when severe, impair interpersonal sexual behavior. Sexual behavior that facilitates caring bonding between people is normal - and that which impairs it is abnormal, not merely an atypical variation. What is needed is more research on the treatment of the paraphilias, particularly pedophilia. To remove them from DSM-V would be the end of this much-needed research."

In response to criticism of the controversial symposium, the APA issued a statement on June 17 saying that "there are no plans or processes set up that would lead to the removal of the Paraphilias from their consideration as legitimate mental disorders."5

CNS noted that Fred Berlin, founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University Hospital, said people who are sexually attracted to children should learn not to feel ashamed of their condition. It quoted him as saying, "I have no problem accepting the fact that someone, through no fault of his own, is attracted to children. But certainly, such an individual has a responsibility...not to act on it."

1. American Psychiatric Association, "Diagnostic Criteria for Pedophilia,"* Release No. 03-28, June 17, 2003.
2. Morahan, L., "Psychiatric Association Debates Reclassifying Pedophilia,"* CNSNews.com, June 11, 2003.
3. Nicolosi, L., "Should These Conditions Be Normalized?"* NARTH, June 12, 2003.
4. Green, 2002.
5. American Psychiatric Association, "Diagnostic Criteria for Pedophilia,"* Release No. 03-28, June 17, 2003.

Link to original




I think that covers point and counterpoint as viewed by those that influence the content of the DSM. It appears they will not clear all paraphilias in one broad sweep and we will have to fight for their removal, like we did for homosexuality and sadomasochism, one paraphilia at a time.




kitkat105 -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 5:33:39 PM)

I'm with Cali.

In some people, it very much can be a problem. Without it being in the DSM, these people would have a lot harder time finding treatment options (eg. psychologist) without a formal way of diagnosing it (which I understand would be brutally important in the US where insurance companies can be so picky). The DSM is not the be all, end all of mental health. It's more like a proposed guideline. Not every mental illness fits neatly into their little box.

For most of us, it's (BDSM) a healthy expression of our sexuality. If people have a problem with it, well, fuck off. I shouldn't have to defend my lifestyle to you, anymore than I would that I love ridiculous amounts of chocolate or sparkling wine.




Karmastic -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 7:16:52 PM)

disclaimer: i didn't read the thread, and i'm just giving my opinion.

all but extreme forms should be removed. i would consider extreme behavior that causes permanent physical harm, or non-physical behavior that isn't in the long term interests of the person. i.e., will they hurt themselves or others. re less extreme, i think there's a pathology and psychosis involved with some forms of BDSM, but i wouldn't indict them by listing them in the DSM.

thanks kalikshama, good post.




LanceHughes -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 9:00:20 PM)

Well, folks.... they are ALL (the parahilias) out of DSM-V.  One strong argument was that cross-dressing was listed only for males dressing as females.  Ever see a Drag King - as they are called - when a female cross dresses as a male?  Poor Lance.... got confused at least once that I know of.  No, really it WAS fun-all-around.

The paraphila of pedophilia now has its own listing as an illness.  Compromises abounded.  I do know what I'm talking about folks.  I helped with some of the research (as a test administrator) that Moser used.  Never met the man and the research was conducted by a local psychiatrist - vanilla - so there was no call for bias.

The BAD thing about pedophilia being listed in the DSM - hear me out - is that it can be used as an excuse.  There are laws against such actions, but when it comes time to sentencing.... "You Honor, my client is mentally ill by the DSM and needs to be sent to an institution, not a jail."

Odd thing about pedophilia, only listing in the DSM that is against the law.  Nueroses leading to murder? Sure, but the actual act of performing the murder itself is not a mental illness.  Was he/she insane at the moment of the killing, not knowing right from wrong?  That's for the jury to decide on the basis of the evidence.  Yes, they can listen to all the expert - and contradictory - witnesses.  But, I drift......

Here's the official overview of DSM-5 - last time I looked it was DSM-V, somebody moved my cheese.
http://www.dsm5.org/about/pages/dsmvoverview.aspx







LanceHughes -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/8/2012 9:16:37 PM)

Distress?  Ah..... before the TR (text revision) if the subject's masochism caused ANYONE distress, it was "IN" as a valid diagnosis.  Let's say that you talked to your neighbor, trying to explain about WIITWD and not to worry about the noise, and so on. She couldn't get her head around that and was distressed - that made YOU mentally ill!

Distress of being a homosexual?  Yep.... the distress of not being out, of not living up to parents hopes for grandchildren and not being able to tell them why, and being married with children and know you're living a lie and on and on and on.  Just normal, every day distress.  Being uncomfortable just because the word "homosexual" was in the DSM, regardless <sorry CalifChick> whether people "know what it means" to be in the DSM.  Two words: "societal pressure."

Just wait, folks, okay?  Just under a year..... Just don't be TOO out there, okay?  We had our Stonewall - which BTW is what is celebrated in the marches.  Yes, there have been raids on BDSM places and meetings, but I do NOT wish you a martyrdom example.... NO riots.... just march and say "Thank you."

As he drifts to the other thread.

The question which is the title of this thread "Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether?" is moot, isn't it?




Kana -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/9/2012 1:08:39 AM)

But, but, if you take out the DSM, all you are left with is the B
[:-]




kitkat105 -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/9/2012 5:55:13 AM)

[sm=goodpost.gif]

Good one, Kana. [:)] Where's Sunny?! That needs to be quote of the day.




FemalecumLover -> RE: Should BDSM be removed from the DSM altogether? (6/12/2012 1:12:19 AM)

Interesting Topic kalikshama

I will read [8|]and comment Later [;)]...




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