RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (Full Version)

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Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 5:25:38 PM)

quote:

she needs to obey, and I need to ensure that I am worth obeying.



This. Call me onry as hell but if I am told to strip and walk down our street or like the example given in the OP for sex at work, I am gonna cross my arms and say... NO.



kitkat105 -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:05:47 PM)

I want to be obedient, because like it was mentioned, He is worth obeying. He inspires me to push through my comfort zone. Or more affectionately, "suck it up, princess!"

He enjoys my obedience, so while I may not enjoy what has happened or the task required, I will still get some enjoyment afterwards because knowing He has enjoyed it and it's made Him happy makes it worthwhile. This is also goes back to that 'rewards' thread (it doesn't always have to be a physical reward, praise goes a long way.. I love love love being told "good girl.")



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:09:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to.

Also, I am quite sure the many dynamics represented here have as many different ways of dealing with a disobedient s-type.

So first, what is your rule book when it comes to obedience? For me and mine, it's you are supposed to obey, always, even if you don't like it, even if you think I'm wrong (though I DEMAND you give me input if you think I'm fucking up), even if it means a hassle for you, EXCEPT when it doesn't make any sense, a/o has the potential to cause you or our dynamic harm.

Me and mine have discussed all this and we rarely have discernment issues. It's obvious, isn't it, that even if you think it doesn't make sense, if we have already discussed how that's the decision, you go with it. BUT, if when push comes to shove the directions don't make sense then YES, you are allowed to use your brain. Not just allowed, expected to. And of course, you don't do things that cause you harm. (Like, no, you don't fuck others at work and jeopardize your job).

Now, when I first started out, a dominant told me: Here's a good rule, never command an s-type to do something if you are not SURE they will obey. B/c telling someone to do something, and having them say no, harms the dynamic on both sides. At the time, I thought it was great advice, and for the most part, still do. BUT, there are times when you ask something, and you get a no. It may be a very respectful no, but it's a no for reasons you could not foresee (generally emotional)

I have an s-type who has not always obeyed me. Sometimes he has reasons why he has to say no to me. Now, he doesn't want to, he's not being bratty about it, but he is not exactly the world's biggest risk taker. He is very risk adverse when it comes to his rt reputation, for instance, and would never knowingly do anything that would cause him to be outed. So I have asked some things of him that have made him uncomfortable, and he had to say no to me.

How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience?



Lawyers have a concurrent saying: "Never ask a question that you don't know the answer to....if you do (and you don't) you're fucked".

Yours was a great posit Madame Parfaitt....and I think, from a subs perspective, it requires a bit more:

Most men have (I'll assume for this discussion we're talking about female dominants and male subs) a rather specific intent, desire, plan....wish.

I think I can speak for most sub males....we wish you knew what we thought and then just did it.

Some (I'm one) have been burdened by vanilla relationships and....when asked, we simply splayed....divulged....only to be told "that's disgusting" (perverted...etc.).

At some point we learned to shut the hell up. (It was less painful overall).

This is meant as no denigration against women....you can't read our minds and....we've been programmed...by television, society and....yes, by women....to tell a lie...because the truth will get us in trouble.

I have to admit, it must be difficult being a woman, trying to understand a man but....we aren't that difficult to understand, all things considered and in the end....the rewards (for the right woman...and for a man willing to give his all) are beyond spectacular.

But, we're averse to giving our all....

I'm rambling....and should probably go to bed but of course....I won't ) )

JJ



kallisto -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:24:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

quote:

she needs to obey, and I need to ensure that I am worth obeying.



This. Call me onry as hell but if I am told to strip and walk down our street or like the example given in the OP for sex at work, I am gonna cross my arms and say... NO.


This is exactly why I've never had an issue obeying in the relationships I've been in. I know that I would never be asked to do something (like this) that would put me or him in harms way ... and me going to jail for walking naked down the street would put me in harm's way.

Big huge difference in obeying and doing something that I just don't like or even agree with and being told to do something just plain stupid.

If I trust him enough to be in a relationship with him, then I trust him enough to obey him. At least that's how it's been for me.



Endivius -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:27:31 PM)

Every time I come accross a profile that says something like, " I want to be gang raped by a bunch of strangers bareback " or some other rediculous shit I just get this urge HULK SMASH!!! But I fight the green guy off and remember that there are all kinds of dumb people in the world and it's not my place to police them.



camille65 -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:40:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to.

Also, I am quite sure the many dynamics represented here have as many different ways of dealing with a disobedient s-type.

<snipped>





To me the answer is within your second paragraph. Newbies and the jpcs don't have the judgment IMO because for them this is really confusing. As a new person or outsider it appears that every order given is immediately obeyed. Slide a new person into a situation where they question the order and suddenly its like they worry they're questioning 'everything'. If they believe that every order or directive HAS to be obeyed, well thats a bit scary when it comes to stuff way outside their comfort zone. So they ask. Sometimes it seems like they are asking about an exceedingly benign thing but to them it may not feel benign.

Or to use less words: they ask because to them it seems really complicated, everything is new.

I can remember feeling as if I had no right to question, and I didn't know enough at that time to realize that not being able to question is not the type of dynamic for me.

People often say that BDSM is just like any lifestyle, that its just all basic common sense. Maybe. But that doesn't hold true for everyone or there'd be no forums for questions. And really, relationships of any sort are fraught with missteps for most people. That is why relationship books sell! Add in what first seems like arbitrary and unwritten rules of BDSM and.. complications.



Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 6:52:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

quote:

she needs to obey, and I need to ensure that I am worth obeying.



This. Call me onry as hell but if I am told to strip and walk down our street or like the example given in the OP for sex at work, I am gonna cross my arms and say... NO.


This is exactly why I've never had an issue obeying in the relationships I've been in. I know that I would never be asked to do something (like this) that would put me or him in harms way ... and me going to jail for walking naked down the street would put me in harm's way.

Big huge difference in obeying and doing something that I just don't like or even agree with and being told to do something just plain stupid.

If I trust him enough to be in a relationship with him, then I trust him enough to obey him. At least that's how it's been for me.



Oh yes, me either. I have never been put in any sort of harm either. Sadly some people are rather clueless though. Honestly over all I see much more abuse and disrespect among vanilla relationships then I do ours.



NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 7:40:42 PM)

I would never knowingly ask a sub of mine to do something that would put him in danger, either health-wise or in danger of being outed. So if a sub of mine will not do what I tell him to do, he had better have a good reason. I am reasonable so, if he has a good reason, I will not get ruffled about it. We will sit down and discuss the issue and, based on his reasoning and mine, I may or may not still require him to do whatever it is, but I will have the last word.

NBMG



JeffBC -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 7:55:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience?

I think for Carol and I this is a no-brainer sort of question. The collar entered into our relationship after a decade of knowing each other. So I think we get a free pass on a lot of the up-front work that would normally need to be done. The whole concept of "disobedience" implies things about our marriage which have never been true much less at the decade plus mark -- vanilla or kinky.

At least on the face of it, the rule books is, "If you want me to think of you as mine, then you must obey... every time." It's kind of like "obey or leave" but the penalty is not divorce, it's simply that our relationship gets restructured into something a bit less totalitarian. The only real price tag from Carol's standpoint is that she very much likes making me happy and owning her makes me happy. So a single act of wilful disobedience equates to losing that opportunity.

Do I give Carol commands that I'm not sure she'll obey? Sure I do. In my opinion any credible leader would. The actual bit of leadership advice I've heard goes more like, "Don't ever give a command you are sure the troops will not obey. It only undermines your authority." I would not give Carol such a command. I'd either work to change her first or simply take the collar back and then we'd try some new style of relationship. When I give her a "maybe" command, it's a white knuckle moment for both of us. Neither of us is sure she'll obey and the collar rides on it. Oh well. No risk, no reward.

Honestly, for us this situation just doesn't come up. It might. I've given some commands which were certainly WAY THE HELL outside her comfort zone as well as outside her moral/ethical boundaries. Who knows, one day I may issue a command to which she says, "Oh hell no" but that occurrence would indicate massive structural failures in our marriage.

Overall, I don't really think we deal in either command or obedience. We're too tight for those concepts to make much sense.



IrishMist -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 7:59:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Thank you, Irish.

I have to say, I am not a big fan of the do it or leave style of relationship management. But obviously it depends on the people involved.


I've noticed in observing others that it tends to work better for those s-types who are more maso than sub. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this. Hhm, I'll have to think about that one.

Certainly, for me I am expected to obey, and if I wasn't totally bought into that, than himself would not be that interested in continuing a relationship with me. Let's face it, I'm too much of a pain in the ass in other ways.

Can I ask you, Irish, would you do something that jeopardized your job? Or something illegal?







That's a tricky one there; and I know that's not really a good answer.

I HAVE done things that are illegal. Not on his orders; but I have done them none-the-less.
As for something that jeopardized my job. Well, that's even trickier. All I am willing to say is that every time I get called, my job becomes 'in jeopardy' by the simple nature of what I do.

I think, though, that what you are asking is...while he was alive, did he ever 'ask' me to do something that was illegal? And the answer is yes. I will not however go into detail about what that was, or the reason behind it.
Also, I did not work while he was alive. He preferred me at home. I did not start working until he got sick; which was about three months before he passed...and that was on his request, not mine.



Endivius -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 8:02:44 PM)

Are you like an assassin or something? Cause that would just be nifty. I have this neighbor....



NuevaVida -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 10:05:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt


How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience?




I'm not in the habit of disobeying but yes, it happens sometimes. Rarely, but it happens. Usually in a time of stress. This relationship is too important to both of us, with an amazing future ahead, for him to toss it out because of an anomaly. There may or may not be punishment involved, and there will always be serious discussion involved.

There have been two times when I have dug my heels in over something. Both times were situations which put me at a very high level of emotional stress, and had to do with principles more than anything. My heels were not dug in lightly. Both times it caused us to re-evaluate the relationship and whether or not we should continue with it. But both times, the stress involved in going forward with his order would have caused me more stress than losing the relationship; I really can not compromise who I am, nor does he want me to. Lots and lots of discussion, and some time apart, and a revamping of certain things about the relationship, we have moved forward.

I'm really glad for that. An "obey or leave" rule would have left us both without a relationship that we both find pretty awesome.



subbyinlosangele -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 10:34:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to.

Also, I am quite sure the many dynamics represented here have as many different ways of dealing with a disobedient s-type.

So first, what is your rule book when it comes to obedience? For me and mine, it's you are supposed to obey, always, even if you don't like it, even if you think I'm wrong (though I DEMAND you give me input if you think I'm fucking up), even if it means a hassle for you, EXCEPT when it doesn't make any sense, a/o has the potential to cause you or our dynamic harm.

Me and mine have discussed all this and we rarely have discernment issues. It's obvious, isn't it, that even if you think it doesn't make sense, if we have already discussed how that's the decision, you go with it. BUT, if when push comes to shove the directions don't make sense then YES, you are allowed to use your brain. Not just allowed, expected to. And of course, you don't do things that cause you harm. (Like, no, you don't fuck others at work and jeopardize your job).

Now, when I first started out, a dominant told me: Here's a good rule, never command an s-type to do something if you are not SURE they will obey. B/c telling someone to do something, and having them say no, harms the dynamic on both sides. At the time, I thought it was great advice, and for the most part, still do. BUT, there are times when you ask something, and you get a no. It may be a very respectful no, but it's a no for reasons you could not foresee (generally emotional)

I have an s-type who has not always obeyed me. Sometimes he has reasons why he has to say no to me. Now, he doesn't want to, he's not being bratty about it, but he is not exactly the world's biggest risk taker. He is very risk adverse when it comes to his rt reputation, for instance, and would never knowingly do anything that would cause him to be outed. So I have asked some things of him that have made him uncomfortable, and he had to say no to me.

How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience?






A lot of this is going to depend on what stage your relationship is in and how well you know someone. BDSM, of course, is built in a foundation of trust, and trust comes from knowledge and understanding of each other. If you are telling someone to do things without a true knowledge and understanding of him, he is certainly within his rights to say no.

If, for example, you want to take compromising photos of someone and he didn't know you well enough to know if you could be trusted with them, he would be right (and probably wise) to say no.

So the real question is, he is saying "No" because you have not take the time to built that foundation of trust, or to understand and appreciation his limits?

I have a different perspective than you. I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a sub telling a domme no. It should be the opening to a good discussion.



MistressDarkArt -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 11:08:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subbyinlosangele

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a sub telling a domme no. It should be the opening to a good discussion.


I don't think there is anything wrong with a sub telling a domme 'I can't because' or 'I'd rather not because'. That is VERY different from a sub merely saying 'no'. The first two create a good climate for discussions, and as a reasonable person who cares for my partners I welcome them. Plain 'no' is straight-up defiance, and not tolerated in my dynamics.



MsKittyValentine -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 1:41:10 AM)

Fast reply- not in answer to any particular point.

Obedience to me is submission in action.

Submission and obedience go hand in hand and are vitally important in my relationship which is 24/7, monogamous, romantic and loving.

I can see that what any sub/slave is asked to do could have some bearing on what their response might be. I personally have no interest in pushing paul for the sake of it, so almost invariably what I ask of him is doable. Doable is not the same as him wanting to do it or do it at that moment. I don't ask the impossible in terms of hardness of tasks or pushing boundaries. I do however require him to be my willing servant all the time, sometimes when he is tired or had a bad day, I see he struggles to be as instantly and gleefully happy to do as I wish. However, he still does it and shows me his submission through obedience.

I feel sorry for newbies who don't know what is the right time and place to obey and who they should obey. It seems simple to me. You obey those you have consented to obey and no one else. You obey in ways you have agreed to obey, which may be open ended or may be limited by negotiation. I suppose some of the ideas put about by those who have no practical experience but a huge amount of fantasy in their heads can confuse newbies who mistake that internet posturing for real life.



RaspberryLemon -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 3:08:16 AM)

I am expected to obey every order that my Master gives me. I don't have to like it. I don't have to be comfortable with it. I just have to be capable of doing it.

I am NOT expected to obey without question. Not only am I permitted to, but I am also required to speak my mind to him at all times. That includes when receiving an order or decision from him. If for some reason I disagree with his decision or find his order to be unreasonable, I'm expected to speak up and tell him why--I may be giving him information (whether it be outside information or internal information) he did not have before that may be useful or even essential to him making his decision. It is also for this reason that I am also allowed to ask "why?" when he has decided something or ordered something of me. Because without knowing his reasoning for the order, I cannot give complete input or feedback. For us, two-way transparency is essential in our relationship--logistically and emotionally.

So I may question him, voice my objections and provide my input, but after we both understand each other, all discussion is over and he makes a final decision. I am expected to follow through and obey that.

Now, he is obligated not to intentionally or knowingly order me to do anything that will harm or damage me. I am obligated to trust that he will not ever intentionally or knowingly order me to do anything that will harm or damage me. With said trust, I don't ever have to worry that I will have to guard my obedience against his orders for my own safety. We are a team, and as such are working towards a common goal. No walls between us. I trust him with my life.

He also will not order me to do something that is impossible for me, because that would be setting me up for failure. Asking me to run 30 miles without stopping, for instance, is not something I am currently physically capable of. There are things I am psychologically incapable of as well, and likewise he will not order me to do something he knows to be mentally or emotionally impossible for me. Knowing this, all that is expected of me is that I obey his orders to the best of my abilities.

That being said, I still have common sense. If for some reason he told me to lay in traffic, dance naked in front of a police station, or saw my own arm off, I would object. Although it is up to his discretion to make decisions and give orders based on what he thinks could harm or damage me, there are certain things that any reasonable person would know could harm, damage, or even kill me. Here is where it gets cloudy and I go into hypothetical-mode, because this has never happened... In objecting to an order that I had good reason to be sure would undeniably damage me, I would assume that we would discuss it, find out why he ordered such a thing of me, and go from there. Of course, as my Master, it is up to him to decide how he wants to deal with my disobedience. However, I know him, I trust him, and I know he would never expect me to obey such a universally rash and irrational order. I know that I do not need to worry about these sorts of things because of who he is as a person. I would not have committed and trusted my life to someone without knowing they were someone who would take good care of me.



ProlificNeeds -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 4:48:33 AM)

FR~

I always reserve the right to say no. It's not an evil word, but it also doesn't mean I won't obey. "Would you like to go take out the garbage?" "No." But I do it anyway. I don't LIKE to do it, but I do it anyway.

It's amusing to see peoples reactions to 'no' half a breath before you start doing the task anyway. Any partner I am with will quickly learn I won't falsely pretend to enjoy tasks I don't enjoy, but I will do them if it makes them happy (exceptions being anything damaging to self or others).

However I'm not sure I really see things in the light of obedience. I'm 50% of a relationship, it's not about being obedient to him, it's about doing all I can to make us both happy in that relationship.



DesFIP -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 6:38:48 AM)

Tiered rules. Meaning some rules are more important than others. So taking care of myself and my kids comes first. Which meant the day he got my schedule screwed up and he wanted me in heels and a short skirt when I was chaperoning a school hiking trip, there were no consequences for me not doing it. And I'm allowed to use my safeword for more than pain during play.



Lucifyre -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 7:09:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

"You didn't prepare for anal today?! Well, then I guess when I throat fuck you in a few minutes it's gonna suck to be you. Now, go get the louissianne out of the cupboard and a trashbag."



What is it with some guys who get off on making thier women puke? I'm not asking that in a snarky way either, this is not the first place I've heard of this particular thing and I'm really curious as to what it is that exctes you about it. Obviously vomit is NOT sexy.
I had a horrible experience when I was young that made sucking cock in the first place a really difficult thing for me to do. Him cumming in my mouth made me gag and sometimes even throw up...every time, for almost 20 years. Swallowing? No fucking chance.
I managed to get past that particular trigger <very> recently but I still have some issues with it occassionally.
I worship Him, and every single part of him. I do very much enjoy giving him that particular pleasure...almost to the point of needing it to feel complete every day now. (The sucking his cock daily was my idea, not His) But it took a long time for me to get past that mental picture from my past and be able to scrub it from my brain and be able to focus just on Him and how good I was making Him feel so that I could enjoy what I was doing as well.

Lucifyre



Lucifyre -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/13/2012 7:42:45 AM)

K, now I'll try to answer the original question too ;)

First and foremost, He and I are a married couple. We have a vanilla life that walks hand in hand with our BDSM life. There are times where he will ask me to do something that I am simply incapable of doing at the time he asks me to. As long as I let him know the reason, and it's legitimate (Sorry Sir, I need to get some work done at the house today, I won't have the 3 hours to spend in the bathroom taking the 4 enemas you want me to this afternoon) as opposed to I just don't want to (Sir, that will make my ass tender, please can I use plain salt water instead of the castile soap?) then he will either assign a different task to complete or allow me to put whatever he asks me to off until a later time when I am able to do it. The first scenario is of course acceptable, and can wait until I am done working. The second is just me being whiney and he doesn't care if my tushy is a little tender...he wants a clean ass to fuck even if it is a little uncomfortable for me and if I do whine about that particular thing he will gladly tell me yes I can use plain salt water...after I've used the soapy one first....sadistic bastard LOL
I have at time had to tell him no for other reasons. When we first went back to a 24/7 arrangement, he asked me to "do him a favor". I told him no, I will not do you a favor, you are in charge, you tell me what to do, I do it..period. It took some time for both of us to get used to thinking in terms of D & s as opposed to husband and wife because we had both gotten out of practice. It's not a favor, it's an order...whether or not it's a soft or hard order is irrelevant. (He had wanted me to fix his lunch for work while he was taking a shower).
Sometimes I believe the type of relationship I am in makes the D/s a little bit more difficult to deal with. We have been in this relationship so long that sometimes the lines between vanilla and everything else get a little bit skewed. He is my husband and he adores me and we have spent a lot of time on equal ground in our marraige, so sometimes him directing me, or me obeying him isn't as black and white as we'd like it to be.
The consequences for not doing a task never get to a point though where he will take the collar back or the relationship is over or whatever. He and I have way too many years invested in eachother and frankly we are way too into eachother and in love with eachother (not to mention kids and both our names on everything we have) to have either of those two things be up for consideration as a result. We always will refer back to discussing as equals why something didn't happen. If it was a D/s task, (and yes that somtimes includes vanilla shit like doing laundry) then there will be a punishment given. If it was something else then we talk about it and work out what the issue was and try to figure out a way to solve whatever got in the way.

Simply put......it's fucking complicated LOL

Lucifyre



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