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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 7:38:55 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

There are two Ronald Reagans. The first is the historical one, who was way too conservative for at-the-time liberals, partly because his pragmatism meant he could pass a lot of legislation. The second is the mythical one, who has been remade into a superconservative, with no pragmatism or compromise at all. Bush was simply pointing out the difference between the two, and the contemporary GOP was forced to deny it. Else they have no actual role models for success, only gridlock.


Reagan was a "Mom, Baseball and Apple Pie," kind of American whereas today's Republican party are more of the "God, Guts, and Guns," variety Of course, by that they mean their God and their guns but the guts of someone else's kid spread all over the battle field.

Another thing about Reagan that differentiates him from today's conservatives (or pretty much all politicians, for that matter) was his affability. Reagan rarely raised his voice or showed any signs of temper. He would criticize the opposition but he was not given to outlandish put downs or accusations of evil intent. He understood that rudeness was counterproductive and that returning rudeness with politeness was an effective way of disarming opposition (as well as making it easier to work with others).


Reagan got shit done... He said he was going to do something, and found a way to get it done... Period.


Did he?

When did the anti abortion amendment get ratified? He called for it every single year he was in office.
What about SDI? Did I miss the deployment of an effective anti ICBM weapon?
How about the "war on drugs?" When did the nation stop having a serious drug problem?

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 7:53:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Hell, the mess at Kent State and Watergate aside, Nixon looks steadily better with every fuckwit they've elected since, doesn't he?

Nixon was very qualified, and did several excellent things that weren't popular, especially abandoning Bretton Woods in time to avoid forced currency devaluation through arbitrage (which brought the Bank of England to its knees twice previously) to opening China.

The tragedy is that Nixon was also ego-maniacal (and manic definitely applies--it was his response to lifelong defensiveness about feeling he was viewed as inferior), paranoid, and dishonest, unnecessarily undercutting his own achievements and agenda, and feeling certainly being President meant he was legally above the law.

I opposed him. But I won't say he was an idiot. He wasn't.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 8:01:12 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Absolutely. He was one of the smartest guys you've had in office since the war, paranoid, paranoid shit or not.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 8:02:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Reagan got shit done.


Like quadrupling the national debt in just eight years to pay for his tax-cut fantasy.
Like changing the largest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor nation in the world.
Like leaving office with 25% of U.S. assets in the hands of foreign investors.
Like cutting down more national forest in the U.S. than all the acreage in rainforests globally.
Like increasing the gap between rich and poor, creating the two tired society that today allows GDP to grow while the middle class remains stagnant and with high unemployment.
Like convincing the public that complex national and international problems are really just simple sound-bites.
Like taking what even Bush and Dole ridiculed as "voo-doo economics" and "Reagonomics" and putting the worst economic idea this country has seen since Hoover into action.
Like bringing the religious right into national political prominence, championing kooks like Falwell.

Not many people would have accomplished that. Not many people would have wanted to.
We're still paying for it too.

Oh, and he got me to change my voter registration to Democrat. The Falwell thing was over the top for me.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 9:55:00 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Thoughts? Did Governor Bush make a valid point?



I think so. He certainly echoed some of the feelings I've had about the Republicans over the past decade or so. I can't sit here and give you specifics because I don't have the time to always pay attention the way I'd like to but it seems to me that between their cocksucking of big business and big religion, the GOP has dumped any notion of representing the common American citizen.

I have no intention of voting Democrat simply because I think the left is even more fucked up but I'm certainly not expecting Romney and the Republicans will do anything to make my life any easier if they win the White House.

You can argue about whether or not Reagan was as great a president as many like to think. I don't think he did that bad of a job regardless of his final record. I do think he was actually trying to be the type of leader who was worthy of the title. After all, he was instrumental in ending the Cold War and he seems to have kept his fucking pants zipped while doing it. Compared to those who have followed him, I just can't hate him.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 10:04:50 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

After all, he was instrumental in ending the Cold War


He took us on a reckless spending spree neither nation could afford and then got awarded coincidental credit for something Gorbachev did.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 10:22:38 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'd also give Carter a bit of credit for that one.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 10:42:06 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

He took us on a reckless spending spree neither nation could afford and then got awarded coincidental credit for something Gorbachev did.



He used SDI as a means to panic the Russians into a spending spree THEY couldn't afford. And it worked. I'm not saying we did it for free but compared to what happened to the USSR, what it cost us was cheap.

_____________________________

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I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 10:56:50 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		You're quite happy about not having had functional national economy in your lifetime, then?

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 11:26:09 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You're quite happy about not having had functional national economy in your lifetime, then?


That depends on your definition of "functional national economy". I'm not rich but I own my home and property, my electricity is on, I can afford food, and I have a few luxuries. I'll happily admit that things could be better but luckily, I'm not the kind of person who thinks money is the most important thing in the world. Certainly, a lot of business and political leaders could use a course in financial ethics but I do what I can to insulate myself from their stupidity.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 11:30:45 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That wasn't my point.
Capitalist economies are based on production, and that's all been outsourced since Reagan. The plutocracy are doing well out of that, as they don't give a fuck where peons are making them money, but it hasn't done anybody else any favours. Professionals have weathered the storm (as skilled professionals always will) but everybody else is either fucked already or waiting in the brothel's lounge wearing something skimpy.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 11:39:58 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

He took us on a reckless spending spree neither nation could afford and then got awarded coincidental credit for something Gorbachev did.


I have to call bullshit on this. Gorbachev was trying to preserve the Soviet Union by modernizing it... he failed... spectacularly.

Yes, conservatives are wrong to give Reagan all the credit for bringing down the Soviet Union but liberals are just as wrong in insisting that Reagan played no role. Reagan set out, as a matter of policy, to undermine the U.S.S.R. SDI and increases in military spending was just one front in that policy. Increased funding of the Nicaraguan Contras and other anti-soviet guerrilla groups was another. John Paul II also gets some credit. His visits to Poland helped spark the Solidarity movement and, although I don't know if it has ever been proven, the Vatican may have helped to fund Solidarity.

Margaret Thatcher gets some credit as a junior partner in this anti-soviet policy.

And, of course, some credit has to go Lech Walesa for having the guts to stand up to the powers that be.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 6/14/2012 11:58:18 AM >

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 11:56:51 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

He took us on a reckless spending spree neither nation could afford and then got awarded coincidental credit for something Gorbachev did.



He used SDI as a means to panic the Russians into a spending spree THEY couldn't afford. And it worked. I'm not saying we did it for free but compared to what happened to the USSR, what it cost us was cheap.

The Soviets did not respond to SDI by spending recklessly, that is a myth.

The USSR had significant economic woes long before Reagan and the final straw was the protracted war in Afghanistan not SDI.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 11:57:54 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Only some credit to Walesa?
He had a fucksight more to do with that than Reagan or Thatcher, iirc.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:02:20 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

The USSR had significant economic woes long before Reagan and the final straw was the protracted war in Afghanistan not SDI.


And one of the reasons it was protracted was the Reagan Administrations funding of the Mujahideen.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:08:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The USSR had significant economic woes long before Reagan and the final straw was the protracted war in Afghanistan not SDI.


And one of the reasons it was protracted was the Reagan Administrations funding of the Mujahideen.

Which was simply carrying on Carter's policy. It was not part of some grand Reagan scheme to destroy the USSR.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:10:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Only some credit to Walesa?
He had a fucksight more to do with that than Reagan or Thatcher, iirc.


More than Thatcher (who was basically a good little yap dog for Reagan's policies)... probably.

More than Reagan? That's debatable. Reagan had a policy of fucking with the Soviets in every sphere he could which is what probably gave Walesa the wiggle room to do what he did. I admire Walesa for his courage. Reagan and the Pope didn't have to worry about being arrested and having their heads beat in by the police, after all. If Reagan and John Paul II not have had their anti-soviet policy however, it is likely that Walesa would have been nothing more than an addition to the long list of those who stood up to power... and then disappeared and were quickly forgotten.



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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:17:51 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Which was simply carrying on Carter's policy. It was not part of some grand Reagan scheme to destroy the USSR.


Reagan took that policy and put it on steroids.

The problem, I think, that some people have is that they so hate Reagan that the can't abide the thought of giving credit where credit is due. But whether you agree or disagree with the man's policies, whether you think he was a great President, a horrid President, or somewhere in between (which is where I would put him) is not relevant to the fact that Reagan did have a policy of undermining the Soviet Union... and it ultimately came to fruition.

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:34:14 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That wasn't my point.
Capitalist economies are based on production, and that's all been outsourced since Reagan. The plutocracy are doing well out of that, as they don't give a fuck where peons are making them money, but it hasn't done anybody else any favours. Professionals have weathered the storm (as skilled professionals always will) but everybody else is either fucked already or waiting in the brothel's lounge wearing something skimpy.


I'm really trying not to get off the topic of the OP but to give you a reply...

...perhaps they should try becoming skilled professionals.

To be honest, Moon, I don't really disagree with your assesment but it isn't the duty of Capitalism to do anyone any "favours". Ethical businessmen will try to offer enough compensation for their workers to provide them a fair quality of life. However, when an unethical or unbalanced business climate offers the chance for corporations to make huge profits (China), greed will convince them to take advantage of it. Your only recourse is to invest your voting power into someone that can provide a more ethical business climate and find yourself a way to become more profitable. Even if it's in a business that you're unaccustomed to. That's how you survive this kind of bullshit...JMO.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Jeb Bush: Reagan Too Bipartisan for Today's GOP - 6/14/2012 12:35:20 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		As I have a policy that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and if it does so, I will attribute that solely to my dominance of nature and none of the myriad of other more direct causality in the universe.

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