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What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 11:20:43 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		For those of you who have been really following the situation in Greece, I want to share some of my perspectives on what the crisis there reveals to us about certain economic and fiscal policies, and what it tells us about what government priorities should be.

A very large reason for the current situation in Greece is the fact that many people there feel they do not have to pay tax. And people either send their money overseas to avoid tax, or simply don't pay their taxes. When enough people and businesses start to do this, and the tax base erodes, it affects government's ability to maintain infrastructure, pay their debt and pay for government programs. And the wealthy always have ways to hide their money. This lack of interest in paying taxes coupled with the Greek government's unwillingness to enforce their tax laws has contributed to the collapse of their economy.

(For those who think taxes are not the issue in Greece - you need to go back and really look at what happened to the country over the last 40-50 years and analyze no just the immediate situation, but the overall picture of what has happened there. One of the reasons Germany does not want to bail Greece out is because Greece is viewed as a country where people don't carry their fair share of the tax burden.)

Which brings me to my next point. Conservatives who go on and on about wanting low or no taxes should consider what happens to a nation when everyone starts to have the attitude that taxes are the "government stealing their hard earned money".

I would actually rather have big government, then to entirely erode the tax base, and end up with the economy collapsing. Those who want low to no taxes and small government - be careful what you wish for. Such a policy only helps the very rich (who simply hide their money). And the country as a whole cannot sustain it - not at all. We need taxes. We need to have the proper attitude towards taxes. And we need a government who is willing to enforce the tax laws.

So what does Greece tell us? That conservative economic tax policies are utterly misguided.


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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 2:20:36 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Which brings me to my next point. Conservatives who go on and on about wanting low or no taxes should consider what happens to a nation when everyone starts to have the attitude that taxes are the "government stealing their hard earned money".

I would actually rather have big government, then to entirely erode the tax base, and end up with the economy collapsing. Those who want low to no taxes and small government - be careful what you wish for. Such a policy only helps the very rich (who simply hide their money). And the country as a whole cannot sustain it - not at all. We need taxes. We need to have the proper attitude towards taxes. And we need a government who is willing to enforce the tax laws.

So what does Greece tell us? That conservative economic tax policies are utterly misguided.

I agree with your analysis of Greece but I think the problem with the country was that it developed a major state infrastructure due to the long term rule of the left-wing Panhellenic Socialist Movement, which it was unable to fund in the long term due to the failure to pull in taxes from all sectors of the economy so the observation about Republicans doesn't automatically follow because they wish to slim down government in accordance with lower taxes, in contrast to Greece. One of the major problems with Greece was the fact that it lied about its deficits to gain entry into the Euro in 2000, and continued to spend heavily year on year since then. The political establishment treated the EU/EEC as a cash cow e.g. openly threatening to veto the entry of several countries into the EEC in 1985 to get more money.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 2:45:03 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Which brings me to my next point. Conservatives who go on and on about wanting low or no taxes should consider what happens to a nation when everyone starts to have the attitude that taxes are the "government stealing their hard earned money".

I would actually rather have big government, then to entirely erode the tax base, and end up with the economy collapsing. Those who want low to no taxes and small government - be careful what you wish for. Such a policy only helps the very rich (who simply hide their money). And the country as a whole cannot sustain it - not at all. We need taxes. We need to have the proper attitude towards taxes. And we need a government who is willing to enforce the tax laws.

So what does Greece tell us? That conservative economic tax policies are utterly misguided.

I agree with your analysis of Greece but I think the problem with the country was that it developed a major state infrastructure due to the long term rule of the left-wing Panhellenic Socialist Movement, which it was unable to fund in the long term due to the failure to pull in taxes from all sectors of the economy so the observation about Republicans doesn't automatically follow because they wish to slim down government in accordance with lower taxes, in contrast to Greece. One of the major problems with Greece was the fact that it lied about its deficits to gain entry into the Euro in 2000, and continued to spend heavily year on year since then. The political establishment treated the EU/EEC as a cash cow e.g. openly threatening to veto the entry of several countries into the EEC in 1985 to get more money.


Maybe that's what Republicans say. But it's not what they do. It's pretty difficult to wage war in multiple areas of the globe without spending some money.

It seems to me we are all better off acknowledging that any meaningful decrease in government spending is unlikely unless Americans are actually willing to give up infrastructure, education, health, redistributive programs or the Defense budget. None of these are things that most Americans actually want to do without.

So, at the end of the day, conservatives, of any stripe, can call for lower/no taxes. But the reality of what that means is not a society that most Americans want.




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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 3:00:08 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Which brings me to my next point. Conservatives who go on and on about wanting low or no taxes should consider what happens to a nation when everyone starts to have the attitude that taxes are the "government stealing their hard earned money".

I would actually rather have big government, then to entirely erode the tax base, and end up with the economy collapsing. Those who want low to no taxes and small government - be careful what you wish for. Such a policy only helps the very rich (who simply hide their money). And the country as a whole cannot sustain it - not at all. We need taxes. We need to have the proper attitude towards taxes. And we need a government who is willing to enforce the tax laws.

So what does Greece tell us? That conservative economic tax policies are utterly misguided.

I agree with your analysis of Greece but I think the problem with the country was that it developed a major state infrastructure due to the long term rule of the left-wing Panhellenic Socialist Movement, which it was unable to fund in the long term due to the failure to pull in taxes from all sectors of the economy so the observation about Republicans doesn't automatically follow because they wish to slim down government in accordance with lower taxes, in contrast to Greece. One of the major problems with Greece was the fact that it lied about its deficits to gain entry into the Euro in 2000, and continued to spend heavily year on year since then. The political establishment treated the EU/EEC as a cash cow e.g. openly threatening to veto the entry of several countries into the EEC in 1985 to get more money.

Maybe that's what Republicans say. But it's not what they do. It's pretty difficult to wage war in multiple areas of the globe without spending some money.

I don't think even Romney wants to wage war after the relative defeats in Afghanistan and Iraq.

quote:


It seems to me we are all better off acknowledging that any meaningful decrease in government spending is unlikely unless Americans are actually willing to give up infrastructure, education, health, redistributive programs or the Defense budget. None of these are things that most Americans actually want to do without.

So, at the end of the day, conservatives, of any stripe, can call for lower/no taxes. But the reality of what that means is not a society that most Americans want.

Where I am from sybstantive savings were derived from improving the efficiency, and re-organising the spending of the State. An entire house of parliament is also being closed. There can be cuts made without harming services much. Having said that, such restructuring can only go so far. I tend to be somewhere in the middle of the big-little government debate.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 3:03:19 PM   
Slavehandsome


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Status: offline 		The situation in Greece tells us that the Globalist idea of regional fiat currencies is a bad idea. Expect the same under the Amero.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 3:23:05 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		The Amero, that old chestnut?

However you are right, everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Greece desperately needs lower interest rates to stimulate growth whilst Germany has voted for higher interest rates to reduce inflation. This an they don't really have a reserve mechanism to help areas out and keep cash flowing.

You need a private sector and a public sector, anyone that thinks you can live without either is a zealot.


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/15/2012 3:26:39 PM >

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 3:46:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

The situation in Greece tells us that the Globalist idea of regional fiat currencies is a bad idea. Expect the same under the Amero.

The situation in Greece tells us that unifying vastly different structural economics in a rush was ill-planned.

The rest of your post shows (1) you don't understand that all money is "fiat" and that (2) you wear tin-foil when you read the news about North America.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 3:54:42 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Yeah, Greece seems to have a complete lack of capitalist mindset. The government doesn't collect taxes, the people don't pay them, and there seems to be little interest in industries aside from tourism, fishing, and other small disorganized businesses. I have no idea why Europe "bet" on them by including them in the EU, as well as Iberia.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 4:16:28 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		I thought Iberia was a make of car.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 4:45:44 PM   
DarkSteven


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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/15/2012 4:48:34 PM   
FullCircle


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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 12:23:09 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Dark Steven
I have no idea why Europe "bet" on them by including them in the EU, as well as Iberia.


One of the ideas behind the founding of the European Union was to prevent the outbreak of another disastrous war like World War I or II. The thinking was to integrate the economies of the member nations to such a degree that they became inseparable, hence removing the causes of the wars that had bedevilled Europe for so many centuries. Viewed from this perspective it makes sense to make the EU as broad and inclusive as possible. It's worth remembering that the only major war that has occurred in Europe since the founding of the original ECSC (the predecessor of the EU) was in the former Yugoslavia, which wasn't an EU member.

So, in this respect, the EU has been a stunning success.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 7:36:43 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Yeah, Greece seems to have a complete lack of capitalist mindset. The government doesn't collect taxes, the people don't pay them, and there seems to be little interest in industries aside from tourism, fishing, and other small disorganized businesses. I have no idea why Europe "bet" on them by including them in the EU, as well as Iberia.


I do understand what you are saying - but the EU, in concept, is really no different from the United States of America. I mean, does anyone deny that some states in this country do not pay their fair share? And other states, due to industry, resources, etc., pay more than their fair share. But North Dakota still gets to be part of the country.

So, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a system that ties together politically independent units under one whole - whether those units are states or independent countries. The issue is really that everyone has to see themselves as one. I don't think the concept of "European" has evolved quite the same way as the concept of "American".

But underlying the failed economy of Greece are still fundamentally the issues that you cite - the lack of a well developed economy, and people not being willing to pay their way. Taxes are a necessary evil, so to speak.



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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 8:43:27 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

the EU, in concept, is really no different from the United States of America. I mean, does anyone deny that some states in this country do not pay their fair share?


The disparity in the EU is FAR greater, as are their macroeconomic practices among countries.

Germany is not Greece in a far greater sense than North Dakota is not New York.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 9:01:18 AM   
Winterapple


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Status: offline 		Exactly. There's a big difference in a nation made up
of states and a union made up of nations.
Americans are Americans at the end of the
day with more of a shared culture and a way
doing things than not.
Some states will always be poorer than
others but they make other contributions.
I doubt New York would subscribe to the
idea if North Dakota doesn't pony up
they've got to go.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 9:11:35 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

the EU, in concept, is really no different from the United States of America. I mean, does anyone deny that some states in this country do not pay their fair share?


The disparity in the EU is FAR greater, as are their macroeconomic practices among countries.

Germany is not Greece in a far greater sense than North Dakota is not New York.


I meant this as analogy, not meant to be taken literally. I am just pointing out that the concept behind the EU is no more ridiculous than the concept of a federal geo-political unit comprised of states that have legal and political independence. It can work, but it inherently means that some parts of the union will be paying more in than others. That's the way it works. It is rare that every part carries it's fair share. Just as certain states in the United States have always had a very small part of the population and a smaller part of the economy, other states have always had larger populations and a larger part of the economy. Some of that discrepancy is there from the start, and no one expects it to go away. The notion that each country of the EU will be an "equal" participant is as ridiculous as saying each state in the U.S. is "equal" in it's economic and fiscal contributions. How can that be possible when a state like North Dakota has less than 1% of the U.S. population and an economic base that has nothing to distinguish itself? In this regard, North Dakota is similar to Greece. Greece with only 2% of the EU population and a relatively simple economy, is always going to be a have not country within the EU. Some of this is just built into the underlying realities. That's all I really meant.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 9:13:00 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I am just pointing out that the concept behind the EU is no more ridiculous than the concept of a federal geo-political unit comprised of states that have legal and political independence.


And I am just pointing out that the reality is far greater than your example portrays.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 9:28:04 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

I would actually rather have big government, then to entirely erode the tax base, and end up with the economy collapsing. Those who want low to no taxes and small government - be careful what you wish for. Such a policy only helps the very rich (who simply hide their money). And the country as a whole cannot sustain it - not at all. We need taxes. We need to have the proper attitude towards taxes. And we need a government who is willing to enforce the tax laws.


I think you get things somewhat reversed. The governments have tendency to expand. Ability to collect taxes is the tool that restrains the governments. In Greece (in the US and many other places) it is the ability of the governments to borrow that gets the countries in trouble. Why should very rich hide their money when there are no taxes is unclear to me? Today's leftist highly centralized big government corporate state model is basically bankrupt both financially and ideologically. Hard to believe someone can support it unless there is selfish immoral interest (there are many people who are parasites to the system).

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 9:41:08 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Today's leftist highly centralized big government corporate state model is basically bankrupt both financially and ideologically.


If you call $188 trillion in assets "bankrupt." Or that $15 trillion enters the country each year. Or being 1/5 of the global economy.

We have a deficit because a system that was working fine got (1) unfunded Bush tax cuts and (2) unfunded Bush wars, compounded by (3) stimulus to prevent severe slow-down from economic impact of tight-credit from the uncertainty generated by the mortgage-bundling-derivatives.

We still have the money for it. We just don't collect it anymore.

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RE: What Greece Tells Us About Politics and Economics - 6/16/2012 12:37:56 PM   
papassion


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Status: offline 		Music mystery, you forgot to add how the root cause of the downturn was the Democrat idea that everyone should own a home. Started with Carter, Then Clinton threatend lawsuits on banks that wouldn't lend money to anyone buying a house if the borrower could see lightning and hear thunder. Wall street sold investments backed by these way overleveraged homes. When the investor found his 100,000 investment was being "gauranteed" by a 10,000 shack, shit hit the fan.
google the housing crisis.

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