IRA Commander to Meet the Queen

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dcnovice -> IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 5:06:12 PM)
quote: LONDON (AP) — The Irish Republican Army-linked Sinn Fein party says one of its leaders, Martin McGuinness, will meet Queen Elizabeth II next week — a once-unthinkable symbol of progress toward peace in Northern Ireland. McGuinness, a former IRA commander, has been invited to attend an event with the queen in his role as deputy first minister of Northern Ireland's Catholic-Protestant power-sharing government. Neither Sinn Fein nor Buckingham Palace revealed detailed plans for the meeting. Britain's Press Association news agency said McGuiness and the queen would meet and shake hands in a private room at the beginning of the engagement. But even if it amounts to little more than a quick handshake, the meeting will have great symbolic value. The queen and her husband, Prince Philip, will visit Northern Ireland on Tuesday and Wednesday as part of her United Kingdom-wide tour celebrating 60 years on the throne. Sinn Fein leaders declined to meet the queen last year during her first state visit to the neighboring Republic of Ireland, arguing it was still too soon after the end of decades of conflict and bloodshed. But party President Gerry Adams said Friday the party has decided McGuinness should meet the monarch, a decision that is sure to meet opposition from some Irish republicans, who want to end British rule in Northern Ireland. "We don't have to do it. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do, despite the fact that it will cause difficulties for our own folk," Adams said. "But it's good for Ireland. It's good for this process we're trying to develop. It's the right time and the right reason," he added. More at Yahoo News Looking at the world, it's easy to get discouraged. So I was unexpectedly heartened by this story today. Growing up as an Irish-American kid, I'd never imagined that "the troubles" would end in my lifetime. Ditto for apartheid. I'd also never dreamed that two guys could get married. These triumphs over (lack of) expectations give me hope. So what gives you hope as you eye our troubled globe?

dcnovice -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 5:15:00 PM)
Jane Goodall's Reasons for Hope

Politesub53 -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 5:17:47 PM)
This is good news indeed. I think Sinn Fein missed a trick on the Queens visit to Dublin last year by staying away. The two sides have to meet sooner or later and fair play to both for agreeing to do so.

Anaxagoras -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 7:15:16 PM)
I have a sense the IRA are doing this now because they have been riding particularly high in the polls in the Republic for the last six months or so, and seek to draw a line under their violent past. If they do they will likely become the second biggest party in the State. Shaking hands with the Queen would be a gesture big enough to do that.

RemoteUser -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 8:31:23 PM)
This. It alleviates the government-'fueled' OPEC boogeyman stories I heard endlessly as a kid. I'd prefer something cleaner, but until the world becomes rational, I'll take the little victories.

Winterapple -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 10:54:03 PM)
When you see the progress in Irish and British relations it's hard not to hope the Israelis and the Palastinians could also move forward. People like Jane Goodall and Desmond TuTu give me hope. That marriage will be a civil right for everyone and in all fifty states is something I believe will happen. It gives me hope that the president has supported marriage equality publicly. Innovations in technology and green living. The beliefs and foundation that Western democracy is built on. Growing awareness for human rights

tweakabelle -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/22/2012 11:57:52 PM)
quote: Looking at the world, it's easy to get discouraged. So I was unexpectedly heartened by this story today. Growing up as an Irish-American kid, I'd never imagined that "the troubles" would end in my lifetime. Ditto for apartheid. I'd also never dreamed that two guys could get married. These triumphs over (lack of) expectations give me hope. So what gives you hope as you eye our troubled globe? Peace and reconciliation in Ireland and South Africa are substantial and inspiring achievements. Let's hope that the Israelis and Palestinians, and others caught up in intractable conflicts learn something from those accomplishments. The increasing spread of democratic rule across the world, (no matter how tenuous it might be in some places) and the increasing importance and respect for human rights are things that give me hope for a better fairer world. What a lovely idea for a thread! Thanks dcnovice!

Edwynn -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 3:41:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I have a sense the IRA are doing this now because they have been riding particularly high in the polls in the Republic for the last six months or so, and seek to draw a line under their violent past. If they do they will likely become the second biggest party in the State. Shaking hands with the Queen would be a gesture big enough to do that. If Britain were not capable of acknowledging their immensely more violent and destructive past in this instance, however much side stepping heretofore, this might not have happened. This didn't start in the '60s or '70s, media misdirection aside. Just ask Jonathan Swift. Maybe the fact that so many ex-pat Brits started so many Irish rebellions through the centuries should tell us something. We only do not call what transpired genocide because the millions lost were a result of gross ineptitude rather than willful intent for that many deaths, but the sheer numbers would qualify, if that be the standard. Many more deaths from outright starvation than from repressing rebellions. It's just the way of things that higher powers can never admit any fault publicly. If any meaningful acknowledgement had to take place via back channels for this to happen, then so be it. Figuring out that Spain and the Armada (via Ireland) are not the threat they once were is slow to come to consciousness for some.

Politesub53 -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 4:14:29 AM)
Edwynn. The current problem only goes back to the seventies. You could argue that historically it goes back way before the Armada, infact it has little to do with the Armada and more to do with the French if we are talking of Protestant/Catholics. At what point do you consider those in Ulster have a right to call it home, because as an American you are on sticky ground time wise unless you are a native, ie Indian. You could even go further if you wish to look at history and go right back to the Picts and the Celts.

Edwynn -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 4:26:57 AM)
Yes, I am well aware. There is some plack in some Irish harbour somewhere referring to "The Bastard King" John, and we know how far back that is. But as I pointed out before, claiming that 'the current problem only goes back to the seventies' is the fitting that the media has bestowed upon us. Yes, there were new incidents at that time that we base things on today, but did all that just come out of the blue, no precedent? There were several incidents in the 20th century alone prior to that. Spain and the Armada were the last semi-relevant excuse that Britain had for controlling Ireland, so I pointed that out. Phillip II was indeed an idiot with too much money and too much religion. Dangerous combination, that.

Anaxagoras -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 8:05:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Edwynn. The current problem only goes back to the seventies. You could argue that historically it goes back way before the Armada, infact it has little to do with the Armada and more to do with the French if we are talking of Protestant/Catholics. At what point do you consider those in Ulster have a right to call it home, because as an American you are on sticky ground time wise unless you are a native, ie Indian. You could even go further if you wish to look at history and go right back to the Picts and the Celts. I wonder if you wrote the above with a straight face. [8\|] The recent conflict stirred with intensifying Unionist nationalism and oppression of the Catholic civil rights movement of the 1960's but it's bizarre to suggest the problem only dates to the 1970's when the links to the vicious sectarianism from the 17th Century onward are so very overt, and near-constant since then. The issue does not even remotely go back 2000+ years lol, nor even to the Picts - the Scots made a genuine peace with the Picts after a relatively short time. Neither is there any issue about Protestants calling Ulster home. It was about power and oppression. The great majority of Protestants in the Republic are proud to be Irish today.

Edwynn -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 8:20:10 AM)
Thanks to both parties' input above. I certainly do not wish to downplay or dispute or disparage this great forward movement. I think it's a big deal, and I am quite happy to see it.

Anaxagoras -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 8:30:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I have a sense the IRA are doing this now because they have been riding particularly high in the polls in the Republic for the last six months or so, and seek to draw a line under their violent past. If they do they will likely become the second biggest party in the State. Shaking hands with the Queen would be a gesture big enough to do that. If Britain were not capable of acknowledging their immensely more violent and destructive past in this instance, however much side stepping heretofore, this might not have happened. This didn't start in the '60s or '70s, media misdirection aside. Just ask Jonathan Swift. Maybe the fact that so many ex-pat Brits started so many Irish rebellions through the centuries should tell us something. We only do not call what transpired genocide because the millions lost were a result of gross ineptitude rather than willful intent for that many deaths, but the sheer numbers would qualify, if that be the standard. Many more deaths from outright starvation than from repressing rebellions. It's just the way of things that higher powers can never admit any fault publicly. If any meaningful acknowledgement had to take place via back channels for this to happen, then so be it. Indeed, some see the death of people on such a vast scale as a genocide. Others see it as a result of callous inaction. Perhaps both are wrong - to my mind it may be somewhere in between. An intentionally criminal neglect where the death of the "natives" was something of a boon. It has to be remembered that there were several big famines, and quite a number of near misses too. It isn't so hard to come to that conclusion when one looks at the barbarity of Cromwell's intervention and especially that of his followers, who assaulted the civilian populace in a systematic fashion and laid waste to the land by targeting food sources particularly. They then disempowered the indigenous people, again in a systematic way through the creation of an exclusively imported British landlord class, and pushed ordinary people to a point where they were barely surviving - hence the repeated famines which aren't really the blame of potato blight. That's really where I see the origins of the modern conflict, the systematic slaughter and suffering was so extreme, and continued for such a long time in order to completely subdue the indigenous populace, that the divisions of two people's couldn't be resolved. Indeed one just has to look at the drop in the populace of the 26 counties (The Republic) from over 6 and a half million in 1841 to 2.6 million in 1926 (first census in the Republic) just a few years after the Brits were kicked out.

Edwynn -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 8:50:39 AM)
Yes, but in spite of my first post on this subject, I don't want to harp over what is done and gone. That's how things like what started in the seventies get going in the first place. It just tics be off a bit when the IRA terrorists are the only terrorists in the recent episode identified as such. They never mention the Orangemen, e.g. Or the government infiltrators, similar to the FBI's doings in the sixties and seventies in the US. An FBI provocateur taught the Weather Underground how to make bombs and was the source of all their weapons, none of which they contemplated before Larry Grathwoll (the 'informant') came along. Anywise, you folks have to remember where some of your stateside progeny came from. Mom's side from the green island, dad's side was a tin smith in England. And you wonder why we have national bipolar disorder.

Politesub53 -> RE: IRA Commander to Meet the Queen (6/23/2012 12:42:06 PM)
Anax my good man.....I say everything with a straight face. [;)]

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