Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed?

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Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:11:20 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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On March 28th of last year, the President did a town hall on Univision, and had the following to say, on the DREAM act failing in Congress;

quote:

ORIGINAL Barack Obama

America is a nation of laws, which means I, as the President, am obligated to enforce the law. I don't have a choice about that. That's part of my job. But I can advocate for changes in the law so that we have a country that is both respectful of the law but also continues to be a great nation of immigrants. And the DREAM Act is a perfect example of a law that can help fix this.

The follow up question was, "With an executive order, could you be able to stop deportations of the students?"

quote:

ORIGINAL Barack Obama
With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed -- and I know that everybody here at Bell is studying hard so you know that we’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws.

There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.

http://www.remarks-by-president-obama-at-univision-town-hall

What changed?

It's worth noting, I think, that the event where he said the above was on the same day that he delivered an address to the nation, on how he was going about declaring war on a sovereign nation, without Congress having told him that he could.

What changed? The perceptions of a man who never previously held any power in his life, about whether or not there are limits to the enormous power of the job he talked his way into.

Post #: 1

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:27:34 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

First

Then

Finally

How`s that for an answer?

I`ve got a question.....

How is it a "military" guy like bush could royally fuck up soooo fuck`n bad and someone with no military training or experience could not only be so successful at waging war on our enemies but also at ending wars and protecting us.

Tho I`m sure the OP has forgotten, many will remember dick cheney saying in response to critics that they had "kept America safe" as well as "there hasn`t been a 9/11 level attack" during their admin.(forgetting they flubbed the actual 9/11 attack)

Nothing succeeds like success....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/23/2012 7:31:38 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:32:21 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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I think when he was served with a more studied legal opinion of the matter and faced with an obstructionist congress, he found indeed that he could do that and would be in such luminous company as Nixon, Carter, St.Wrinklemeat, Clinton, W and the like.

And he never declared war on a soveriegn nation, that is the stupidest fucking notion that ignoramuses are drooling these days, you see it is clearly unconstitutional to do so, that is congresses job. And they did declare that war in AUMF.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 3

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:37:58 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How`s that for an answer?

Right up to your usual standards.

President Obama was correct in his original answer, yet decided to go ahead and do it anyway. Tell us, Owner59, what changed, if it wasn't his attitude about the limitations of his power?

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 4

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:43:35 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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He was given legal opinions by people who had studied the precedents and caselaw in detail.

Turns out that his initial (and reasonable) expectation of the law was misinformed, when they showed him the precedents of many presidents and caselaw, much like anyone of us might have a reasonable expectation that corporations are not people. Or that
'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.' means exactly what the fuck it says, which according to the legislation from the neo-con bench, it does not.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 5

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 7:53:01 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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So you're going with the, "he found lawyers who told him he could," defense, Ron? Because, after all, nothing makes you a better person, than having lawyers whisper in your ear, all day...

What do you mean he never declared war? Whether the message delivered to the palace comes from an ambassador with a formal note, or a hellfire off a drone, the declaration is exactly the same.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 6

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 8:06:26 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So you're going with the, "he found lawyers who told him he could," defense, Ron? Because, after all, nothing makes you a better person, than having lawyers whisper in your ear, all day...

Having lawyers make up some way to allow you to torture people, ok with cons.
Having lawyers find a way to let young people who have never known anyplace but the US stay here, not ok with cons.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 7

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 8:16:20 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How`s that for an answer?

Right up to your usual standards.

President Obama was correct in his original answer, yet decided to go ahead and do it anyway. Tell us, Owner59, what changed, if it wasn't his attitude about the limitations of his power?

Lol.....back at ya buddy.......

Just another whiney bush thread folks.........pretending to be an Obama thread .......nothing to see here.......

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 8

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 8:20:22 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So you're going with the, "he found lawyers who told him he could," defense, Ron? Because, after all, nothing makes you a better person, than having lawyers whisper in your ear, all day...

What do you mean he never declared war? Whether the message delivered to the palace comes from an ambassador with a formal note, or a hellfire off a drone, the declaration is exactly the same.

Every president has had a phalanx of lawyers whispering in their ear, don't fuckin make it dirty now, when it wasn't dirty to have people tortured thru lawyerism, nor invade a country under false pretenses thru lawyerism, or have W and all those others I mentioned do the same thing thru lawyerism. Its only dirty when democrats do it, never corporate capitulists, teabaggers and neo-cons.

Your second statement is noisome blubbering. W committed treason, what do you intend to do about that? Reagan declared war, what do you intend to do about that? Nixon declared war, what do you intend to do about that?

All of these were done without the knowing consent of the congress.

Fuckin pathetic.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 9

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 8:30:51 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Here's your water, boys.

Obama On Immigration: "The Only Thing That Changed Was Politics"

Get those toes a-tapping, and carry it.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 10

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 9:17:41 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Makes him a better man than you quite magnificently, don't it.

Carry your horseshit, boys.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 11

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 12:39:04 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

On March 28th of last year, the President did a town hall on Univision, and had the following to say, on the DREAM act failing in Congress;

quote:

ORIGINAL Barack Obama

America is a nation of laws, which means I, as the President, am obligated to enforce the law. I don't have a choice about that. That's part of my job. But I can advocate for changes in the law so that we have a country that is both respectful of the law but also continues to be a great nation of immigrants. And the DREAM Act is a perfect example of a law that can help fix this.

The follow up question was, "With an executive order, could you be able to stop deportations of the students?"

quote:

ORIGINAL Barack Obama
With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed -- and I know that everybody here at Bell is studying hard so you know that we’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws.

There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.

http://www.remarks-by-president-obama-at-univision-town-hall

What changed?

Nothing, actually. Obama is no different from Bush, Clinton or Reagan for that matter. I can't think of any president in my lifetime who has actually kept his word. Every one of them has done what is expedient from their respective perspective of the Executive. Some just had a bit more class than others.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 12

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 1:34:11 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Breaking campaign promises are not the same as.......lying us into a war......or leaking the ID of a covert agent....then denying it.

That said......the president has done a pretty good job of keeping his campaign promises.

I don`t recall bush promising to "close the boarder" but he let illegal immigration DOUBLE in numbers under his "watch".

The president however has been brutally affective at deporting them.........accept this one narrow group.......kids........Which is pretty classy.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 13

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 2:22:39 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Nothing, actually. Obama is no different from Bush, Clinton or Reagan for that matter. I can't think of any president in my lifetime who has actually kept his word. Every one of them has done what is expedient from their respective perspective of the Executive. Some just had a bit more class than others.

I do love this 'mentality' of conservatives. The idea that the President (not to mention Congress and the US Supreme Court....or the other 46 states, 4 commonwealths and 6 territories....AND....the US Military along with all 310+ million Americans) must agree with them personally (like a dictatorship)! That if such entites do not, they are just....wrong...and can not be trusted from that point on. Its just a totally 'whacko' position to take. Go figure, the President is an independent person who thinks for himself. And that this person (Yachtie, not the President), like alot of other looney conservatives hold the belief they are the only ones desiring the US President to do things....THEIR WAY!

Back when I played World of Warcraft (i.e. WoW), I was a Guild Master for a guild that had some 160 individual accounts (and about 2-3 alts per account on top of that). We did about two different Molten Core and Onyxia runs a week (those being 40 man dungeons). Once saved to one, you couldnt join the other (this is called 'Vanilla WoW' as its before the expansion). I had senior and junior level officers of the guild that handled a wide range of details from 'class officers' (i.e. the Mages, Paladins, Warriors, Hunters, etc) to Guild Recruitment (people joined and lefted at times) to even Resource Gatherment and Item Creation (0% Fire Resistance was like 'D.O.A' in Molten Core). Why am I saying all of this?

I would say I had players from senior down to 'newly joined' to the guild constantly asking me for this or that. Most of them had good advice and were good natured about things. Some (the elitist in the guild) demanded 'their way or else!'. Others ran or helped run a much smaller guild and believed 'smaller was better' (most small guilds at that time couldnt get the manpower or resources to do Onyxia let alone Molten Core). Yes, I had about 100 different accounts at anytime during a week wishing me to do a string of different things. Some of it was inter-guild politics and some of it was simply ego-stroking on their part. It takes quite a bit of patience and diplomacy to keep the guild running without major problems or in-fighting. Most players had alot of fun and I was GM for about a year (before RL butted in....).

Its reasonable to assume that the President has many more people wishing, desiring, begging, threating, and whateverness for him to do or not do on things. Some of those groups are at odds with other groups at the same time! So if you dont like how they ran their administrations, than why dont you put your money where your mouth is, and run for US President-ship. Once your the president, you can run things the way you believe them to be run. Except, just as I learned being the GM, its not that easy or straight forward. You'll do things you dont want to do or desire to do, but for the good of many, you will do it.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 14

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 2:25:10 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Breaking campaign promises are not the same as.......lying us into a war......or leaking the ID of a covert agent....then denying it.

That said......the president has done a pretty good job of keeping his campaign promises.

I don`t recall bush promising to "close the boarder" but he let illegal immigration DOUBLE in numbers under his "watch".

The president however has been brutally affective at deporting them.........accept this one narrow group.......kids........Which is pretty classy.

"I will NOT conduct NATION BUILDING into OTHER COUNTRIES!"

-Gov. George W. Bush, 1999

And WHAT did he do in BOTH Iraq and Afghanistan, boys and girls? Oh, and he did say that about as often as his dad said "Read My Lips: No New Taxes!".

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 15

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 2:28:35 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

It's nothing to do with campaign promises, Owner59. In the first set of quotes, he was already President, making excuses for his personal incompetence in dealing with the legislature, and in the video, he is claiming that the very same personal incompetence now justifies his disregard for the law, and the structure of our government.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 16

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 2:55:34 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline

Well, one thing is clear...politics did change.

The Dream Act was written by both members of parties.

The Dream Act did pass the House by an overwhelming bipartisan majority vote.

When it got to the Senate, the act got 55 votes (several republicans joined with democrats for it) but they couldn't get the 60 needed for cloture and it died in filibuster.

So tell me, Heretic, why won't Romney give an opinion on what he has been calling a 'stop gap measure'? He won't say if he'd keep it in place while seeking permanent comprehensive immigration reform if he's elected. He won't give any specifics at all.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 17

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 3:02:13 PM

subrob1967

Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Well, one thing is clear...politics did change.

The Dream Act was written by both members of parties.

The Dream Act did pass the House by an overwhelming bipartisan majority vote.

When it got to the Senate, the act got 55 votes (several republicans joined with democrats for it) but they couldn't get the 60 needed for cloture and it died in filibuster.

So tell me, Heretic, why won't Romney give an opinion on what he has been calling a 'stop gap measure'? He won't say if he'd keep it in place while seeking permanent comprehensive immigration reform if he's elected. He won't give any specifics at all.

Why should he? Those people who aren't going to vote for him won't change their minds on this issue, same with those who are going to vote for him. Why should he draw attention off of all the negative news that's hitting Obama right now? He's campaigning on the economy, not on immigration, so he needs to stay on topic... Even though that's really bad for his opponent.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 18

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 3:24:21 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

So tell me, Heretic, why won't Romney give an opinion on what he has been calling a 'stop gap measure'? He won't say if he'd keep it in place while seeking permanent comprehensive immigration reform if he's elected. He won't give any specifics at all.

Makes it tough for the libs to nitpick, doesn't it, Erie?

Perhaps, since this is realistically the right goal to achieve, he would plan on doing much the same, by methods that are appropriate to the role of the President?

I'm sure Mitt Romney will be rolling out some proposals along the way. It's only June you know. Until that time comes the better a job President Obama does unselling himself to the middle, the easier it is for Mitt to pick up the disaffected and disgusted.

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 19

RE: Pres. Obama, and DREAM - What changed? - 6/23/2012 3:24:52 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's nothing to do with campaign promises, Owner59. In the first set of quotes, he was already President, making excuses for his personal incompetence in dealing with the legislature, and in the video, he is claiming that the very same personal incompetence now justifies his disregard for the law, and the structure of our government.

Well rather than rushfelching, I dont see the legislature making any excuses for their lying, their ineptitude, their broken promises.

Somebody has to fix it for the fuckups, looks like Obama is finally coming into his sack and the neo-cons and teabaggers out there in the legislature and world at large are flouncing around and screaming in their falsettos like peri-menopausal drag queens.

While nobody finds any fault with it, nobody cares.

The only evidence I have seen of disregard of the law out here Rich, is you. On and on about unlawfully this and unconstitutionally that, and then when instructed that you are out of your league and very much misinformed concerning the law, you grouse under your breath in every post AS IF.......

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/23/2012 3:26:35 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 20

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