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Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 5:04:46 AM   
tweakabelle


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In explosive comments on a Melbourne radio station, a Salvation Army spokesperson affirmed that GLBT people should be "put to death". The interview also reveals that training in hate is an officially sanctioned by the SA, and spread through its instruction 'booklet' used in the training of its members. The comments were not a case of a naive rank and file member accidentally letting the truth slip, but those of a ranking SA official whose job title is "Media Relations".

The SA subsequently put out a statement apologising to those it offended. However there was no mention of any action taken against the offending individual, or of any changes to the SA's teaching cirriculum.

The interview with Maj Andrew Craibe of the Salvation Army can be accessed in full here:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2012/06/26448/
Craibe's comments have sparked widespread calls for a boycott of the SA on the Net.

These appalling comments once again pose the question:
What can be done to stop institutionalised hate being preached and spread by bigots hiding behind the cloak of religion?
and the more direct question :
When are those who preach love actually going to practice what they preach?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/24/2012 5:07:05 AM >


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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 5:34:42 AM   
subrob1967


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As long as there is freedom of religion & speech, institutions will have the right to preach anything they want. Likewise, you have the right to turn them off, or not utilize any of the services offered by the offensive institution.

What the Major said is wrong, IMO, and will affect my opinion of the Salvation Army from now on. But I don't think we should try to silence his voice, or opinion. I'd rather know what an institution believes, and make my own choice to do business with them or not, rather than have the beliefs stay in the shadows.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 5:59:18 AM   
kalikshama


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Why You Shouldn't Donate to the Salvation Army Bell Ringers

As the holidays approach, the Salvation Army bell ringers are out in front of stores dunning shoppers for donations. If you care about gay rights, you'll skip their bucket in favor of a charity that doesn't actively discriminate against the LGBT community.

The Salvation Army has a history of active discrimination against gays and lesbians. While you might think you're helping the hungry and homeless by dropping a few dollars in the bright red buckets, not everyone can share in the donations. Many LGBT people are rejected by the evangelical church charity because they're "sexually impure."

The church claims it holds "a positive view of human sexuality," but then clarifies that "sexual intimacy is understood as a gift of God to be enjoyed within the context of heterosexual marriage." The Salvation Army doesn't believe that gays and lesbians should ever know the intimacy of any loving relationship, instead teaching that "Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life."

On its webpage, the group claims that "the services of The Salvation Army are available to all who qualify, without regard to sexual orientation." While the words are nice, their actions speak volumes. They blatantly ignore the position statement and deny LGBT people services unless they renounce their sexuality, end same-sex relationships, or, in some cases, attend services "open to all who confess Christ as Savior and who accept and abide by The Salvation Army's doctrine and discipline." In other words, if you're gay or lesbian, you don't qualify.

The organization also has a record of actively lobbying governments worldwide for anti-gay policies - including an attempt to make consensual gay sex illegal. (Yes, you're paying lobbyists with those donations.)

After the break are some highlights from the evangelical Christian charity's recent anti-gay political lobbying, a handy video with more information, and a list of charities who don't discriminate against their clients and employees.

Since 1986 the Salvation Army has engaged in five major assaults on the LGBT community's civil rights and attempted to carve out exemptions that would allow them to deny gays and lesbians needed services as well as employment.

- When New Zealand considered passage of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986, the Salvation Army collected signatures in an attempt to get the legislation killed. The act decriminalized consensual sex between gay men. The measure passed over the charity's objections.

- In the United Kingdom, the Salvation Army actively pushed passage of an amendment to the Local Government Act. The amendment stated that local authorities "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship." The law has since been repealed, but it led many schools and colleges to close LGBT student organizations out of fear they'd lose their government funding.

- In 2001, the organization tried to extract a resolution from the White House that they could ignore local non-discrimination laws that protected LGBT people. While the commitment would have applied to all employees, the group claimed that it needed the resolution so it "did not have to ordain sexually active gay ministers and did not have to provide medical benefits to the same-sex partners of employees." After lawmakers and civil rights activists revealed the Salvation Army's active resistance to non-discrimination laws, the White House admitted the charity was seeking the exemptions.

- Also in 2001, the evangelical charity actively lobbied to change how the Bush administration would distribute over $24 billion in grants and tax deductions by urging the White House deny funding to any cities or states that included LGBT non-discrimination laws. Ari Fleischer, White House press secretary, issued a statement saying the administration was denying a "regulation sought by the church to protect the right of taxpayer-funded religious organizations to discriminate against homosexuals."

- In 2004, the Salvation Army threatened to close all their soup kitchens in New York City to protest the city's decision to require all vendors and charities doing business with the city to adhere to all civil rights laws. The organization balked at having to treat gay employees equal to straight employees.

I've seen the discrimination the Salvation Army preaches first hand. When a former boyfriend and I were homeless, the Salvation Army insisted we break up before they'd offer assistance. We slept on the street instead and declined to break up as they demanded.

Instead of donating to the Salvation Army, choose a different charity that will help everyone without prejudice. Find a local secular charity - or here are some national organizations that provide help to anyone who needs it:

- Goodwill (disabled and unemployed)
- The Red Cross (medical and emergency relief)
- Doctors Without Borders (medical and emergency relief)
- Habitat for Humanity (homelessness and housing)

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 2:22:39 PM   
erieangel


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OK That does it!!

I've always been a huge supporter of the SA. Even when I was on Social Security and food stamps, whatever change I had in my pockets whenever I passed one of those buckets always went into it; probably hundreds of dollars that I really couldn't afford, too.

I am the proud mother of a proud gay man and the Salvation Army will never get another dollar from me.


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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 5:29:44 PM   
vincentML


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~FR~

Wow! Eye-opening OP. Thanks to tweakabelle.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/24/2012 11:42:07 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

I'd rather know what an institution believes, and make my own choice to do business with them or not, rather than have the beliefs stay in the shadows.


I can understand your reluctance to rush to judgement. Sadly, the SA position on sexuality issues is far from clarified by the statement they issues in response to widespread condemnation of the unfortunate remarks in the OP.

OTOH, they claim in their apology to treat all people equally, and to have an open mind about the sexuality of people they offer their services to ... See this statement for their position after the offending remarks.

OTOH, they don't distance themselves from the Biblical quotes, they don't take any action against the bigot who made the appalling remarks, and significantly, there is no mention of any intention to edit out or change the offensive remarks in their training manual.

To me that adds up to a lot of nice words to assuage those offended, but no change in their basic position. kalishama's info also adds to the negative case against the SA. So I have no confidence they're going to change their ways at all.

To make matters worse: In Australia most jurisdictions have laws prohibiting vilification (or hate speech) of queers. So if I made the kind of remarks this bigot made (perish the thought!), I would be breaking the law. Because there are religious exemptions, this bigot can spread his hate without fear of prosecution - he has a privileged position legally. Thus they are free to spread this hate to their and other children, all under the guise of so-called "religious doctrine". This is the most sickening aspect of it.

At a minimum, all religious exemptions from human rights, anti-discrimination and hate speech laws must end immediately.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 9:08:29 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I'd rather know what an institution believes, and make my own choice to do business with them or not, rather than have the beliefs stay in the shadows.


I can understand your reluctance to rush to judgement. Sadly, the SA position on sexuality issues is far from clarified by the statement they issues in response to widespread condemnation of the unfortunate remarks in the OP.

OTOH, they claim in their apology to treat all people equally, and to have an open mind about the sexuality of people they offer their services to ... See this statement for their position after the offending remarks.

OTOH, they don't distance themselves from the Biblical quotes, they don't take any action against the bigot who made the appalling remarks, and significantly, there is no mention of any intention to edit out or change the offensive remarks in their training manual.

To me that adds up to a lot of nice words to assuage those offended, but no change in their basic position. kalishama's info also adds to the negative case against the SA. So I have no confidence they're going to change their ways at all.

To make matters worse: In Australia most jurisdictions have laws prohibiting vilification (or hate speech) of queers. So if I made the kind of remarks this bigot made (perish the thought!), I would be breaking the law. Because there are religious exemptions, this bigot can spread his hate without fear of prosecution - he has a privileged position legally. Thus they are free to spread this hate to their and other children, all under the guise of so-called "religious doctrine". This is the most sickening aspect of it.

At a minimum, all religious exemptions from human rights, anti-discrimination and hate speech laws must end immediately.


Oh, there's no reluctance, I'm for GLBT rights, and won't support the SA any longer, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was, it's better to have these views known to the public, rather than kept internally. Generally training manuals are kept private, and out of the public eye.

I also think it's a shame that a group that was founded, and who's mission is to help people in need, should just fucking help people, and not worry about their sexual orientation.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 3:15:15 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

As long as there is freedom of religion & speech, institutions will have the right to preach anything they want. Likewise, you have the right to turn them off, or not utilize any of the services offered by the offensive institution.

What the Major said is wrong, IMO, and will affect my opinion of the Salvation Army from now on. But I don't think we should try to silence his voice, or opinion. I'd rather know what an institution believes, and make my own choice to do business with them or not, rather than have the beliefs stay in the shadows.

well said.

tweakabelle, good post, i wasn't aware of this.

and they're "only" quoting the glorious bible, what so many of us humans claim as the guide to life.

all you Christians, you can't have it both ways. Either follow the Bible, or make a new religion. There comes a point where you've disavowed so much of the Bible, that you're not a true Christian anyway.

i wouldn't indict the SA, anymore than i would indict any Christian who believes in the Bible. just one more example of religiosity and hypocrisy. This lesbian woman is trying to rag on the SA guy for believing the bible.

oh, and the SA seems to be saying, it's fine if you're a fag, we don't discriminate with our services, but you can't join us. as uninspiring as that is, that's their prerogative. and ours to not donate or shop there.


< Message edited by Karmastic -- 6/25/2012 3:18:56 PM >


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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 5:00:36 PM   
servantforuse


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Every group in the country has some nut job shooting his mouth off about something. I will continue giving to the SA. They have no control of what a few there say.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 8:31:54 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Every group in the country has some nut job shooting his mouth off about something. I will continue giving to the SA. They have no control of what a few there say.

It's not just some nut job. It's their policy. Were you too fucking lazy to read it?

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 9:25:41 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I will continue giving to the SA. They have no control of what a few there say.

Yes they do.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 10:07:30 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

They have no control of what a few there say.


As the OP made clear, the offensive remarks were made by the Sal. Army's "Media Officer", that is the person appointed by the Salvos to speak on their behalf to the media and in public.

Therefore, the Salvation Army does control what this person says, and what this person says speaks for the Salvos.

The Salvation Army has not repudiated his appalling remarks, nor have they distanced themselves from those offensive passages in the Bible that they claim underwrites their position. Nor has the SA taken any action to discipline this particular bigot.

To me this removes any possible justification for donating to the SA. To support to the SA is to support an organisation that preaches hate, that has institutionalised bigotry against queers and is stubbornly refusing to abandon its bigotry.

Wholly indefensible.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/25/2012 10:08:25 PM >


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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/25/2012 10:50:25 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Every group in the country has some nut job shooting his mouth off about something. I will continue giving to the SA. They have no control of what a few there say.



Did you not read?? These offensive comments weren't made by just "some member" but by the official spokesperson of the SA. And the SA has failed to distance themselves from his remarks.

Continue supporting the bigoted organization if you want, it is after all a free country, but do so knowing that you support bigotry and hate.


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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 5:30:11 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
I also think it's a shame that a group that was founded, and who's mission is to help people in need, should just fucking help people, and not worry about their sexual orientation.

Their mission is to propagandise for Methodism and gain new recruits for their church. Helping people in need is only a side effect of those in need being easier marks for their agenda. If anybody else would put up with all of the crap they come out with in return for something to eat and a roof over their head for the night, they wouldn't be overly concerned with helping people in need in the first place.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 10:26:27 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Their mission is to propagandise for Methodism and gain new recruits for their church. Helping people in need is only a side effect of those in need being easier marks for their agenda. If anybody else would put up with all of the crap they come out with in return for something to eat and a roof over their head for the night, they wouldn't be overly concerned with helping people in need in the first place.


In the end they aren't forcing people to join their cult, the people who accept their help, do so willingly. Now everyone knows the SA's feelings about GLBT, perhaps some will be less willing to accept help from them. I'd be willing to bet that the SA sees a drastic drop in donations this year, just like The Susan G Komen foundation did.

That as they say, is being hoist upon their own petard.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 12:35:49 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
In the end they aren't forcing people to join their cult, the people who accept their help, do so willingly

No they're not. They're accepting the Sally Army's "help" because all of the other hoovervilles are full.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 1:53:45 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
In the end they aren't forcing people to join their cult, the people who accept their help, do so willingly

No they're not. They're accepting the Sally Army's "help" because all of the other hoovervilles are full.


Obamavilles now, did you miss the news about America's first food stamp President?

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 2:31:01 PM   
Moonhead


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This is adding to the matter under discussion how? Maybe I'll call the mods on you. They shouldn't be letting you get away with this sort of off topic drivel.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 9:31:13 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

This is adding to the matter under discussion how? Maybe I'll call the mods on you. They shouldn't be letting you get away with this sort of off topic drivel.


Some people just have to make everything about Obama because they have nothing else to say.

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RE: Feel the love .... - 6/26/2012 10:00:34 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

In the end they aren't forcing people to join their cult, the people who accept their help, do so willingly.


It's not like people living on the street or in dire poverty are overwhelmed by the bounty of choices available to them, is it? I have heard innumerable stories about the Salvos forcing their Dickensian policies on people in no position to resist.

For example, the SA rehab here in Sydney, the William Booth Institute, as a matter of policy, ejects those recovering addicts and alcoholics who decline to attend the in house religious services, or participate in the daily compulsory prayer sessions. In one horrific case related to me first hand, an addict 24 hours into a 5 day detox (I'm told the withdrawals are at their most intense 24-48 hours into a detox) off a $1,000 a week heroin habit was evicted from emergency accommodation because he didn't have $15 to pay for an overnight bed, and then denied entry into the in-house detox, after first being accepted as a patient, because he was "inappropriately dressed"(his chest was bare). He ended up being tossed onto the street. Institutional sadism at it's best.

There is a huge gap between the SA's public image and its reality. So comments such as the toxic ones in the OP are no surprise to me. These people need to be dragged into the 21st century. Their belief system contains intolerable bigotry which they refuse to disavow. This is unacceptable and I urge you to consider giving your hard earned cash to a genuine charity, where your $ will help finance the kind of activities and services we expect charities to perform.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/26/2012 10:01:10 PM >


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