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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/26/2012 2:38:46 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Yeah, like Master said, our lives would be incredibly boring. When Master will ask me what I have planned for the day I'll usually say something like, run to the store, clean the house, make a few phone calls, work on homework, go shopping for something like an iron, have lunch with my daughter and some days it's just...sleep.

Yeah, fun huh? LOL

Actually it is to us. Then again we both abhore drama and both like our rather boring lives. It's nice and quiet and simple.



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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/27/2012 1:59:53 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

I am not talking about instructional books, I am talking about the fictional stories.

Take, for instance, the Beauty Trilogy. I hear that one mentioned a lot around here.

Or "50 Shades of Grey." Gor and and "The Story of O" go without mentioning.

Everyone keeps claiming that they are unrealistic. Well of course they bloody well are! They are fantasies!

Hell, Gor and Beauty are explicitly set in fantasy worlds.

None of these are attempting to portray the reality of BDSM. They attempt to draw the reader into a fantasy where such things are possible. John Norman is horribly repetitive because he keeps harping on the absolute slavery present in his books. I read mention today in the 50 shades of Grey thread about how one reader couldn't stand how much A. N. Rouquellure* described asses.

Here's the thing: The reason why those were mentioned so often is that they are what the authors liked; they match their own fantasies and fetishes. Were I to write an erotic novel, like Gor, there wouldn't be a whole heck of a lot of gay male porn: it's not what interests me. No, there would be a metric-crapload** of hot chicks in every chapter. Hell, if I wanted to advance the plot and slaves weren't necessary for the scene there would still be two slave girls dyking it out in the background while awaiting the touch of their masters. Why? Because it's my bleedin' fantasy world! It isn't meant to be realistic. I don't expect Luke Skywalker to have a lightsaber that fits all of the rules of physics; and all of my slave girls are bi-obedient sluts - but only for their masters. Just because.

That's what Anne Rice, John Norman, Pauline Reage and E.L. James*** are going for: fantasy. It's wank material without pictures. Actually, no pictures and an actual plot makes it 'erotica' not 'porn,' so that makes it classy.

These aren't instruction manuals; they are erotica. If "SM101" or "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns" were telling you that this is the correct behavior I would be worried. But that's not the kind of book I am talking about here.

No author's fantasy is going to match yours precisely; we all have slightly different fetishes. Some of them are going to be distasteful for you. Suck it up and deal.





Malcolm -
I've not read the rest of the posts, so perhaps I'm restating.

Here's the thing.... fantasy writing can still be GOOD writing. I actually like the Beauty books. They are much better than A Rice's craptastic vampire books. The way she uses words - all flowery and such - go well with the Beauty books (as I recall - I read them YEARS ago!)

I read the Gor books - or at least a dozen of them or so. What a dreadful set of drivel. I think I found a sentence that had 29 semicolons and 17 commas in it. (or some other ridiculous number). I don't care one way or the other about the fantasy aspect of it, just GRAMMAR, puhlease! I enjoyed certain aspects of those books - the connection with historical societies for example. That made reading them manageable.

Some of the bodice rippers that I read aren't really very different from other erotica. They have the same pattern more or less, but the way words are put together is what makes it interesting to me. Julie Garwood is one of my favorite authors. Her characters are in some kind of power dynamic for the most part (and heaven knows that Diana Gabaldon's Jamie Fraser gave Claire quite the spanking - and the character admitted he enjoyed it!).

Erotica, like all kinds of writing, needs to meet a certain standard (for me!). Crap writing is still crap writing - if it's about planting daffodil bulbs or screwing like rabbits is irrelevant. Same for porn on the screen. A crap story is still a crap story. Bad acting is still bad acting.

Give me some good erotica, well written, I'm all for it! (Try Chrystos - her writing is smoking hot).

Best wishes,
sunshine
*Found a Chrystos story:


I Bought a New Red

dress to knock her socks off, spent all day looking for just the right combination of sleeve & drape, so I could actually knock all her clothes off......She met me at the boat dressed so sharp she cut all the boys to ribbons

Over dinner in a very crowded queer restaurant I teased her by having to catch drips of my food with my tongue, staring into her eyes, daring her to lean over & grab my breast or crotch & titillate the faggot waiters......She sat back soaking me up, enjoying my teasing tidbits, for all the world not wanting to fuck me ever......I knew better as she's kept me on my back all night since we met......I began to pout because I wasn't affecting her enough to suit me & she hadn't said a thing about my dress......Just then the waiter brought our dessert, a small cake she'd had decorated to say Beg Me To Fuck You, with pink roses all around the edge

I laughed so hard I tore my dress a little......The waiter smirked......I fed her roses from the cake, she licked my fingers so slowly I almost screamed......Near us some blazer dykes were very nervous & offended, so naturally she began to make loud sucking noises......Laughing, we left them to their girl scout sex & went dancing, where she kept her hand on my ass & her thigh between my legs even during the fast ones......Going home she pulled my thigh-top stockings to my knees and played with me......I'd worn no underpants especially for her......We were having such a good time she couldn't park & we laughed as she tried a third time & I blew in her ear almost causing a wreck

Then we started doing it in the front seat of her car, awkward with gear knob & wrong angles, until a cop pulled up & said sarcastically through the open window Do you need some assistance parking, Sir?......She flamed as red as my dress & returned to maneuvering the car instead of me

I was so horny I could barely walk in my matching high heels & she held my arm as we crossed to her place, pinching my nipple with her other hand & smiling her grin of anticipation......We necked on the porch to upset her nosy neighbors, who have twice complained about the noise I made coming......Then she couldn't get the lock to work & we giggled as I stood with heels in hand, my stockings full of runs & a wet spot on the back of my silk dress almost as wide as my ass......The door popped open so suddenly she fell forward & I tumbled after her, gasping......I started up the stairs heading for her bed when she caught hold of my pubic hair with her hand & pulled me back onto her until I was kneeling on the stairs as she fucked me from behind & my dress ripped some more as she took me hard, kicking the door shut with one foot, taking me out of this world until I was upside down with my head at the door & leg on the banister......Heat of her crotch as she came on me, my dress ripping right up the front as we laughed harder

The next morning her roommate said we were disgusting & we grinned with pride......The cleaners cannot repair the sweet dress & looked at me very oddly but I went out giggling & made her a pocket handkerchief with it, sewing rolled hems & a discreet message along one edge......PLEASE rip my dress off anytime



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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/27/2012 10:02:23 AM   
LaTigresse


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/27/2012 10:11:33 AM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		I don't know what other people expect out of BDSM literature.

I only know what I expect; and that is to be entertained and hopefully turned on.

I have read a ton of BDSM erotica starting in my teens and some were good, some were great and some were awful. But never boring.

I find that as a young girl first venturing into exploring those feelings, the books helped me figure out what I was really into. This helped me communicate to my partners and enabled me to "live" out the fantasies.

I don't think they ruined me or created any false expectations; simply because I knew they were novels written by someone else, and sometimes it worked for me and when it didn't, so what? Next book.

As for 50 Shades of Gray, I find it so amusing that everyone is so up in arms about it. To me, it is a simple love story with some BDSM thrown it. It is not well written, but it was fun to read. I have not for one moment worried that the world at large was going to think that all BDSM should be, or is, as depicted in the books.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 6/27/2012 10:12:06 AM >

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/27/2012 10:23:54 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		SexyRedelicious!!!! *tacklehugs*

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/27/2012 10:46:23 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Rockin story, Sunny!


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 5:58:28 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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No, I don't think we expect too much. I think most people understand BDSM fiction to be exactly that, fiction.

With that said, I personally enjoy books that are well-written and with interesting characters (by interesting, read, complex). Plot to me is actually quite secondary. By my personal criteria, I find books like "The Story of O" and the Beauty trilogy to truly rise to the level of solid literature.

50 Shades of Grey is the equivalent of a BDSM Harlequin romance. I've never been into those types of books. It's a traditional boy meets girl story with stock characters, and some BDSM thrown in for titillation. It is primarily about plot - will she win the guy in the end - without a lot of real meat to the characters or the story line. The whole story is just about will she catch the guy in the end. I'm not upset by the books. But I'm hard pressed to call them BDSM fiction in the same realm as "O" or "Beauty". Not even close. The fact that 50 Shades will be more widely read than the Beauty trilogy is something of a travesty from a literary perspective, but then most best sellers are not NOT actually great literature. This is the way of books.

So do I expect a lot from BDSM fiction? No, not per se. Do I expect a lot from a novel? Well, yes. If I'm going to call a novel good, BDSM or vanilla, it needs to be good.

Just because 50 Shades has BDSM elements doesn't mean I have to fall all head over heels with it, and consider it good literature.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 6:13:53 AM   
topcat


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From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Elissa Walds "Meeting the Master"

William Carney's "the Real Thing"

are really the only SM themed novels I'd call literature.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 7:06:53 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		I think the biggest issue with most BDSM based fiction I have read is that the writer knows shit all about BDSM. Every now and then they get the sex right, but you know, great sex is easy if you know what you are doing.

Great relationships, not so much. The absolute best BDSM relationship is in Diana Gabaldon's Highlander series. The sunshinemiss already gave it a shout out. Their relationship is portrayed as straight (it's historical fiction with a slight sci fi twist), but Jamie and Claire have the most fantastic dom/sub relationship in my opinion (and you can tell their sex is hot hot hot).

One of the things I love about it is that you get to see Jamie as a young man. He's a young, not terribly experienced dom male, so he fucks up. But you know, he learns, and he lets his wife Claire (who is slightly older) teach him. It's just a great example of a sub female "teaching" a man how to be a great dom, and let me tell you, Claire does not have a passive bone in her body !!

I also love his pet name for her: Sassanach. This is a term the Scots (Jamie is the quintessential Scots warrior) gave the hated English (Claire is English).

A great read, even if you are not especially found of historical literature.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 7:26:38 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I think the biggest issue with most BDSM based fiction I have read is that the writer knows shit all about BDSM.


Yeah, but people that have never been exposed to BDSM D/s don't know that. They think that it's based off of knowledge.


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 7:32:06 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I know, which I find infuriating at times. The doms are portrayed as abusive assholes, the subs as dangerously neurotic masochists (The Secretary is a prime example).

You know, in my time I've met a *lot* of BDSM people real time. The vast majority did not need immediate therapy, in my never humble opinion. Regrettably, this attitude has become the perceived idea in many minds as BDSM becomes more mainstream.





< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 6/28/2012 7:33:49 AM >

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 10:56:28 AM   
Winterapple


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If I download some free erotica that
someone self published on Amazon I
don't expect anything. I hope I will enjoy
it but if I I don't I got what I payed for.

If a traditional and respected publishing
house publishes and markets a book and
expects me to pay for it I have a little
higher expectations.
Harlequin romances are trite and
formulaic but they do get edited.
And the people who buy Harlequins
know what they are and what they are
paying for going in.

It'd like Campbells soup. They have a
formula and people buy it because they
want the can of soup they bought to
taste like the last can of they bought.
And they trust Campells to follow
certain standards so they won't get
ill from eating their product.
If Campbells stuck somebody's
homemade soup in a can and put
their label on it and sold it that
would sort of lousy.

And that's pretty much what the
publisher did with this thing.



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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/28/2012 10:59:17 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
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Status: offline 		In the companion book to the Outlander series Diana
talks about some of the reactions readers had to
the belt scene.



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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/30/2012 5:38:19 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
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Status: offline 		I read. I like. I share.

Love to the ladies.

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