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Child abuse - 6/27/2012 2:42:45 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		A report by a group of leading UK lawyers, led by the former high court judge Sir Stephen Sedley and including the UK's former attorney-general Lady Scotland, slammed Israel for its "indisputable" abuse of Palestinian children.

The report detailed a series of abuses including "night-time arrests, the use of blindfolds and painful plastic wrist ties, physical and/or verbal abuse, the failure to be informed of the right to silence or to see a lawyer, solitary confinement, self-incrimination, children being made to sign statements in Hebrew which they could not understand and extremely restricted access to family. "In this process, every year hundreds of Palestinian children are traumatised, sometimes irreversibly, are denied part of the their schooling and then live at ongoing risk of much harsher punishment if they are arrested again," the report said."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/26/israel-palestinian-children-injustice

UK paper The Independent noted: "Israeli children must have access to a lawyer within 48 hours and cannot be imprisoned under the age of 14. But Palestinian children as young as 12 are jailed and can be kept for three months without legal representation. Between 500 and 700 are jailed each year." It added that the UK Govt is expected to make representations to Israel over the ongoing abuses.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-ready-to-take-on-israel-over-fate-of-children-clapped-in-irons-7888914.html

This is the latest in a series of accounts of child abuse by Israeli authorities that have come from a variety of human rights organisations, NGOs, and independent media accounts. Consistent abuses of the Geneva Conventions (ie. war crimes) and institutionalised child abuse are now firmly established as facts of the 45 year long Israeli occupation of Palestine.

The full report is available here:
http://www.childreninmilitarycustody.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Children_in_Military_Custody_Executive_Summary_English.pdf

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/27/2012 2:44:02 AM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 5:32:26 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Re the OP:

I guess they want to ensure that the next generation of Palistinians will hate them at least as much as the present generation.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 5:40:45 AM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		Hmmm How many Jews are on Obama's staff? Is Leiberman a Republican now? Why is it that everyone accuses Republicans of being so blindly supportive of Israel, and yet, there are so many rank and file Democrats that are either Jewish themselves and/or support Israel just as surely.

I'm on the conservative side of the fence and I make no bones about saying that I think what Israel does is none of our business and that if they act inappropriately they should have to fend for themselves just like any other country.

Like anyone else, Israel and it's people get no free pass from me, I judge the character, not the country, race or religion. And like every other segment of the world population you have good and bad examples...

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 5:55:58 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

A report by a group of leading UK lawyers, led by the former high court judge Sir Stephen Sedley and including the UK's former attorney-general Lady Scotland, slammed Israel for its "indisputable" abuse of Palestinian children.

The report detailed a series of abuses including "night-time arrests, the use of blindfolds and painful plastic wrist ties, physical and/or verbal abuse, the failure to be informed of the right to silence or to see a lawyer, solitary confinement, self-incrimination, children being made to sign statements in Hebrew which they could not understand and extremely restricted access to family. "In this process, every year hundreds of Palestinian children are traumatised, sometimes irreversibly, are denied part of the their schooling and then live at ongoing risk of much harsher punishment if they are arrested again," the report said."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/26/israel-palestinian-children-injustice


My impression is that what this publication is describing is standard police procedure or a general tendency of all police departments globally where some localities are only slightly better than others. Traumatizing people "terror" is their business. They follow orders and it doesn't matter if you are a man, woman, or child. "Traumatised, sometimes irreversibly." I've known trauma. Who cares? No one. "Made to sign statements" I've heard that some where before. This is tired old news that authorities do such things. What is clear is that they have a cast system. Who does not have a cast system of one sort or another? Some localities are slightly better than others in this regard as well. You are discriminated against according to some criteria. Perhaps it is your credit score or your education. It is all discrimination since none of these things are infallable indicators of who you are. Finally, the report reaches a climax of absurdity by saying, they "live at ongoing risk of much harsher punishment if they are arrested again". This is drivel.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 6:02:26 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I think it is awful that kids are treated this way. I have to wonder though, why you don't get equally upset when the palestinian terrorists strap bombs to those same kids and encourage them to take out as many people with them when it blows. Don't you consider that child abuse also?

The treatment of children in conflicts is a real issue that should be taken seriously but on the other hand children are radicalised and used as weapons by Palestinians, and surely that is the gravest abuse here, which of course the report ignores. These radicalised children (translation: most are teenagers of 14+) actually constitute a fairly significant element in the conflict, with hundreds of Israeli’s injured http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=251327 each year as a result.

There is a lot of very disturbing stuff attesting to the above on the web, e.g. an infant saying there is no Israel, whilst making the hand gesture of guns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztVPwUZh6o

A 14 year old Palestinian Suicide Bomber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E

One of the funnier (albeit very disturbing) areas that they use is children’s TV e.g. Hamas' Mickey Mouse (“the filth of the criminal plundering Jews”), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2J3my3pOIc

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/27/2012 6:57:36 AM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 9:20:07 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If the below paragraph from your article is true....what should they do...let Palestinian children kill theirs? Yes something needs to be done, children should not be treated by Israel as they are but why not mention the reasons behind the actions. As usual you ignore that part.

Again action is needed on both sides of this conflict not just one. Both should be condemned and sanctioned by the UN.


"In a statement, the Israeli embassy in London said it appreciated the delegation's efforts "to learn about the challenges involved in dealing with minors involved in acts of militancy and violence. Regrettably, such activities continue to be encouraged by official Palestinian textbooks and television programmes which glorify terrorism and suicide terrorists. As a result under-18 year olds are frequently involved in lethal acts … with the Palestinian Authority unable or unwilling to meet its obligation to investigate and prosecute these offences, Israel has no choice but to do so itself."

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/27/2012 9:21:14 AM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 9:25:24 AM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
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Status: offline 		Putting the whole thing in context, stop yourself for a minute and imagine if one morning you woke up to banging on the door to find that the Sioux nation was standing outside telling you that they owned your land and were taking it, and that you and your family had to leave immediately.

That's pretty much what happened to the Palestinians. If you deserted your property for 1000 years I highly doubt the new owners would gladly hand it over to your great great great great grandkids.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 9:33:25 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You will always find me condemning both sides and defending neither...can you defend any side in this conflict? For every atrocity one commits the other commits two.

The worlds problem …they choose sides …rather then understand both are wrong and actions need to be taken against both.

Butch

ps...how would you like to go to bed at night not knowing if a rocket will plunge in your childrens bedroom..

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/27/2012 9:34:34 AM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 10:13:00 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		I thought to expand further on what I wrote earlier in post 25.

Clearly what is being criticized is not the tactics, that is police tactics, since these tactics are globally uniform, but the very use of the police to address the problem. If you don't want people handcuffed, don't call the police. Why? Because that is what they do. What happens when there is for example a school shooting in your country?

To cite another example, are children used by their parents in a divorce to get back at each other? Does this happen in your country or just Israel?

If you are looking for evil, you don't have to look so far away.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 2:16:15 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

Putting the whole thing in context, stop yourself for a minute and imagine if one morning you woke up to banging on the door to find that the Sioux nation was standing outside telling you that they owned your land and were taking it, and that you and your family had to leave immediately.

That's pretty much what happened to the Palestinians. If you deserted your property for 1000 years I highly doubt the new owners would gladly hand it over to your great great great great grandkids.



I honestly don't know how I would react. But i am 100% positive on one thing. I would never strap a bomb to a child in order to solve the problem. Would you?

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 8:30:48 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I thought to expand further on what I wrote earlier in post 25.

Clearly what is being criticized is not the tactics, that is police tactics, since these tactics are globally uniform, but the very use of the police to address the problem. If you don't want people handcuffed, don't call the police. Why? Because that is what they do. What happens when there is for example a school shooting in your country?

To cite another example, are children used by their parents in a divorce to get back at each other? Does this happen in your country or just Israel?

If you are looking for evil, you don't have to look so far away.


If one is looking for excuses, one doesn't have to look very far does one?

It's sad that you are unconvinced by the word of a UK High Court Judge (ret'd) and the former Attorney-General of the UK. There's a host of independent evidence to confirm their findings from a plethora of sources, including Israeli sources. For example, check out the website of the Israeli human rights organisation, B'TSelem here.

Perhaps this footage, of an Israeli tank firing a shell, without any warning, at some Palestinian children is a bit too graphic to rationalise away as 'standard police tactics':
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f6_1229896617

I find myself unable to hope that you are comfortable that your tax dollars are financing this ghastly behaviour by the Israel/IDF, and that your Govt is providing the diplomatic and political shield the Israelis hide behind to avoid prosecution for their innumerable war crimes and human rights abuses. I would be horrified to find myself in any way complicit with any kind of child abuse, no matter who does it or why.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/27/2012 8:40:40 PM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 8:36:15 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Re the OP:

I guess they want to ensure that the next generation of Palistinians will hate them at least as much as the present generation.

Yup. If the goal is to produce a generation of terrorists, the Israelis are certainly going about it in the correct and most efficient manner.

In a related but slightly off topic matter, I was interested to read the following in the UK paper, The Independent:
" A senior Israeli minister has conceded that a statement attributed to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad threatening to "wipe Israel off the face of the map" was misquoted. Dan Meridor, the intelligence and atomic energy minister, admitted the 2005 quote, used by Mr Netanyahu, was taken out of context. "They didn't say 'we'll wipe it out', but that it is a cancerous tumour and should be removed," Mr Meridor said. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestinians-deliver-ultimatum-to-israel-in-bid-to-revive-peace-talks-7654793.html

So there we have it, straight from the horse's mouth as it were. All the repeated Israelis claims that the Iran President called for the "extermination of Israel" were false after all. He didn't say it, the Israeli Government now tells us. There's a salient lesson in there for all those who choose to take the Israelis at their word. One has to marvel at the efficiency of their propaganda machine, but never believe it without independently verified supporting evidence.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/27/2012 8:59:03 PM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/27/2012 11:46:13 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's sad that you are unconvinced by the word of a UK High Court Judge (ret'd) and the former Attorney-General of the UK. There's a host of independent evidence to confirm their findings from a plethora of sources, including Israeli sources. For example, check out the website of the Israeli human rights organisation, B'TSelem here.

Perhaps this footage, of an Israeli tank firing a shell, without any warning, at some Palestinian children is a bit too graphic to rationalise away as 'standard police tactics':
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f6_1229896617

I find myself unable to hope that you are comfortable that your tax dollars are financing this ghastly behaviour by the Israel/IDF, and that your Govt is providing the diplomatic and political shield the Israelis hide behind to avoid prosecution for their innumerable war crimes and human rights abuses. I would be horrified to find myself in any way complicit with any kind of child abuse, no matter who does it or why.


Given what I read, unless it is slanted to make the UK High Court Judge (ret'd) look like a buffoon, the UK High Court Judge (ret'd) it seems to me is probably best left in retirement. Do you realize that they are attempting to goat the Jews into a final solution? Having watched the footage it is possible that the shell wasn't meant for the kids. Perhaps it was meant for the journalist. I saw the video and it wasn't graphic. The shell missed the kids and it was unlikely to have hit them. It was a shot across the bow.

Fairness only goes so far. Sometimes you have to accept your fate because striving against it will do more harm than good. They allow their children to run in the streets like feral animals. Why did you not notice this? Their pride is a false pride. The willingness of the Palestinians to resort to such measures is despicable. They are a conquered people who failed to invest in a military. They don't need your sympathy. They do not hold the olive branch and white flag in their hands. They instead carry the stone of hate. Hate is their lullaby. That they are willing to take the rest of the world with them to the grave should give you and everyone else pause.

Maybe the Jews were wrong, but that doesn't make the Palestinians right. Perhaps they were made for each other to abuse each other in Hell for all eternity. Goodness is a choice and they have chosen evil over good. The underlying presumption is that the underdog can do no wrong; their circumstances excuses everything. This UK High Court Judge in my opinion is morally bankrupt. We are all obligated to do right. It isn't the sole responsibility of the Israelis.

A female switch of my acquaintance who introduced me to this life style had a saying, "The lady doth protest too much ..." which is from Shakespeare's Hamlet. This protest against child abuse suggests to me an underlying insecurity that is unrelated to the welfare of children.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/28/2012 5:43:51 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline 		The video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Dx9LjnQOY from last year by an Italian photo-journalist in this link might be of interest because it addresses the issue of young stone throwers, and the rather shocking involvement of the international media in portraying these kids in a certain light, on what are often pretty much staged sets unbeknownst to the viewer. The same scenes are replicated after Mosque on a Friday http://elderofziyon.blogspot.ie/2011/10/more-pallywood-lady-doth-protest-too.html and Palestinian towns like Bil'in. There is so much media involvement its surreal.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Edited to add; thanks for the story on the pic Anaxagoras. Odd that the original poster didn't add a link.

Thanks THB!

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RE: Child abuse - 6/28/2012 8:19:46 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

BenevolentM
quote:



ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's sad that you are unconvinced by the word of a UK High Court Judge (ret'd) and the former Attorney-General of the UK. There's a host of independent evidence to confirm their findings from a plethora of sources, including Israeli sources. For example, check out the website of the Israeli human rights organisation, B'TSelem here.

Perhaps this footage, of an Israeli tank firing a shell, without any warning, at some Palestinian children is a bit too graphic to rationalise away as 'standard police tactics':
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f6_1229896617

I find myself unable to hope that you are comfortable that your tax dollars are financing this ghastly behaviour by the Israel/IDF, and that your Govt is providing the diplomatic and political shield the Israelis hide behind to avoid prosecution for their innumerable war crimes and human rights abuses. I would be horrified to find myself in any way complicit with any kind of child abuse, no matter who does it or why.



Given what I read, unless it is slanted to make the UK High Court Judge (ret'd) look like a buffoon, the UK High Court Judge (ret'd) it seems to me is probably best left in retirement. Do you realize that they are attempting to goat the Jews into a final solution? Having watched the footage it is possible that the shell wasn't meant for the kids. Perhaps it was meant for the journalist. I saw the video and it wasn't graphic. The shell missed the kids and it was unlikely to have hit them. It was a shot across the bow.

Fairness only goes so far. Sometimes you have to accept your fate because striving against it will do more harm than good. They allow their children to run in the streets like feral animals. Why did you not notice this? Their pride is a false pride. The willingness of the Palestinians to resort to such measures is despicable. They are a conquered people who failed to invest in a military. They don't need your sympathy. They do not hold the olive branch and white flag in their hands. They instead carry the stone of hate. Hate is their lullaby. That they are willing to take the rest of the world with them to the grave should give you and everyone else pause.

Maybe the Jews were wrong, but that doesn't make the Palestinians right. Perhaps they were made for each other to abuse each other in Hell for all eternity. Goodness is a choice and they have chosen evil over good. The underlying presumption is that the underdog can do no wrong; their circumstances excuses everything. This UK High Court Judge in my opinion is morally bankrupt. We are all obligated to do right. It isn't the sole responsibility of the Israelis.



What sanctimonious trash, made even ghastlier by the persistent whiff of toxic racism.

Leaving aside the post's ugly racist undertones, the inability to find anything wrong with a tank firing deliberately at unarmed civilians, let alone children, is simply staggering. It is difficult for me to imagine any circumstances where such an action can be justified. Perhaps, more than anything else, it's a salient indicator of the moral vacuum into which the "Israel can do no wrong" crowd have sunk.

Tanks firing live shells at unarmed civilians is never right, morally or legally. It is an unambiguous crime, a heinous war crime. It is indefensible according to any moral or legal code I am familiar with. Until you have grasped this elementary point of morality and legality, can I suggest you refrain from using terms like "morally bankrupt" to describe any one other than yourself.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/28/2012 8:24:19 PM >

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RE: Child abuse - 6/29/2012 2:40:30 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

... Tanks firing live shells at unarmed civilians is never right, morally or legally. It is an unambiguous crime, a heinous war crime. It is indefensible according to any moral or legal code I am familiar with. ...


The topic is highly charged.

The video does not show a tank firing a shell at unarmed civilians. It depicts a reporter that was full of glitter in a war zone that got hurt. The tank fired a shell in an environment where there was a reporter and under-aged civilians. The Palestinians should be charged with war crimes for not enforcing a curfew. If you value the lives of your children would you permit them to hang out around tanks with live rounds on the prowl? The kids knew that the gun turret moved in their general direction as if the tank had a target and was getting ready to fire. It is called discretely leave the scene.

To be perfectly honest, I do not know this factually, but all the evidence suggests it. The reporter stood his ground. All his glitter and the fact that he was a journalist did not give him the right to stand his ground, however. He had an obligation to get out of the way. It made the journalist a combatant. There is more evidence that he or a target behind him was the target. The effectiveness of a shell is not the impact of the shell, but the explosion and the resulting debris. You pretty much have to hit a building. The shell was not fired on the kids.

The journalists aren't taking the danger seriously. If the journalists aren't taking the danger seriously, is there any real danger? Generally speaking, there isn't much danger apparently which means this whole thing is a joke. Smelling my arm pit, obviously, my opinion must be motivated by a "whiff of toxic racism". The odor is distinct. My wit must be offensive some how.

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RE: Child abuse - 6/29/2012 4:11:56 AM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline 		I honestly didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this....


The Palestinians should be charged with war crimes for not enforcing a curfew

are you for real? So it's the parents fault? In no way is it the fault of the tank commander or his superiors?

Journalists constantly put themselves in danger, why? To try and report the truth. It does not make them combatants. Ws Marie Colvin a combatant when she was shelled in Syria?

On 2nd thoughts I think I will cry not laugh as this sort of thought is what leads to more and more and more people dying.....on both sides.
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

... Tanks firing live shells at unarmed civilians is never right, morally or legally. It is an unambiguous crime, a heinous war crime. It is indefensible according to any moral or legal code I am familiar with. ...


The topic is highly charged.

The video does not show a tank firing a shell at unarmed civilians. It depicts a reporter that was full of glitter in a war zone that got hurt. The tank fired a shell in an environment where there was a reporter and under-aged civilians. The Palestinians should be charged with war crimes for not enforcing a curfew. If you value the lives of your children would you permit them to hang out around tanks with live rounds on the prowl? The kids knew that the gun turret moved in their general direction as if the tank had a target and was getting ready to fire. It is called discretely leave the scene.

To be perfectly honest, I do not know this factually, but all the evidence suggests it. The reporter stood his ground. All his glitter and the fact that he was a journalist did not give him the right to stand his ground, however. He had an obligation to get out of the way. It made the journalist a combatant. There is more evidence that he or a target behind him was the target. The effectiveness of a shell is not the impact of the shell, but the explosion and the resulting debris. You pretty much have to hit a building. The shell was not fired on the kids.

The journalists aren't taking the danger seriously. If the journalists aren't taking the danger seriously, is there any real danger? Generally speaking, there isn't much danger apparently which means this whole thing is a joke. Smelling my arm pit, obviously, my opinion must be motivated by a "whiff of toxic racism". The odor is distinct. My wit must be offensive some how.



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