RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (Full Version)

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Gabrielle -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/23/2004 4:26:18 AM)

I started this thread as a discussion for how feminism has affected the attitude of men. Not in the sense that they are threatened by it, but instead that in feminism, they have found an excuse not to be at their top potential.

Perhaps, I am wrong in how I see things. But it seems that when women started being independent of men, working outside of the home in successful careers and pretty much taking on more responsibility than they ever had, men slacked off. Not outside of the home, but inside of the home.

Men haven't taken as much responsibility, worked as hard, or stood up for their families as much as they used to. Some say that men are getting more involved in the family on a personal level, which offsets the declining financial responsibility and giving up the title of 'head of household. It has been my experience in getting to know many different generations, that a good man has always been involved in his family on a personal level. Back in the 20's all the way up to now.

It has also been my observation that in my generation, I am 28, that men aren't working as hard, slacking off in household responsibility, and using the "but I got up with the baby last night" type of excuse to explain himself. He expects his wife to bring home the money, clean the house, and raise the children, while he mumbles "the wife will take care of it". Why should she?! Damn it man, stand up and help her. Yes she is independent, yes, she can hold a good job, yes she can do all this on her own, but don't use it as an excuse to be lazy!!!!

My other point on this thread was to say that women are allowing it. They feel empowered because they can do all these things, that is what makes us superior to men. I am not bashing men, they just aren't as good at multi-tasking 24/7 as we are. My Master knows I can juggle a helluva lot more than he can. He knows that I am a capable woman, but he also knows it is tiring and expects me to ask for help if I want it. What makes him different from most men in my generation is that when he asks if there is anything he can do for me, he means it. He is also willing to work another job, even 2 if I should ever decide to quit my own job. Personally, I do not wish to extend him that far, and would actually like to see him every once in awhile, so I am not ready to put him in that position. But the fact that he is WILLING to work hard for me and the family and do whatever takes to make life easy for me, goes a lot farther than if he were to say "You are capable, so I expect you to."



rain -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/23/2004 5:47:20 AM)

londonswitch: thank you for your thoughtful and intelligent replies. i also enjoyed the jokes at the end of your post...good to lighten up things once in awhile. (glad to know that your spirit will be with us at the march; i've always enjoyed the company of *spirits* in general! [:D])

Gabrielle, thanks for re-directing this thread.

i don't think that feminism has allowed men to become lazy, but rather it does the following: to understand, appreciate, and respect the fact that women are capable beings. Also, i think that feminism has given men the opportunity to realize that THEIR careers and hard work are not the end all be all of existence; that family IS important, and that children need a father's love and guidance as well as a mother's love and guidance.

While it may be true that some men will use ANY excuse to be lazy, i don't think that feminism is the only *culprit* (for lack of a better word). There are many people, both men and women who will find any excuse not to be the best PERSON they can be, and will try to put all responsibilities onto their partners.

Cheers all,

~rain~



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/23/2004 1:04:20 PM)

To start off i will begin by saying that what i answer is what i choose to answer i don`t need you to dictate your sarcastic embelisihments on my behalf. If it were true that a woman was abused and assaulted every 6 seconds as the media suggests our shelters and refuge centers would be on overload capacity which of course is not the case and that is just if there were 10 % who actually reported the crime. Do the math ! The notion that husbands of the 50`s and 60`s were happily oppressing their wives until the feminsts came along in the 70`s is utter nonsense. If you ask the younger women of today you will see that they are rejecting the hateful nonsense of these againg feminists. Did women not go to work when they wanted to back then? Don`t be fooled, life for women is only more pleasant at work and at home today because of the progress in science and technology, it had nothing to do with feminism. The feminist agenda is selfish and divisive still today ! Let us take a look, the streets are less safe for women now than they were 50 years ago. There is more violence against women today.Women are just as overworked now as they ever were. they are less likely to hold on to their marriages. They are less able to afford not to have to work if they are married with children. And new health issues which never existed back then seem to be spouting up for them. The men of the 50`s and 60`s were brought up to respect women and the message was always being fed through the media the schools and the churches. Today a woman does not get that respect of being the first to get on the lifeboat if the ship is sinking, it`s everybody for themselves. And that`s with every facet of everyday life. I may have come out here sounding like a woman hater but that could not be farther from the truth. Man is balance in a woman`s life as is woman. Deep rooted oppresive behavior expressed by feminists have always had their target to demonise men. Men are caring fathers, men are teachers, men are the courageous ones who will probably save you if no one else will, cause wheter it be the horror of the 9/11 trade center or even someone drowning in a lake, a man will always be the first one to jump in to rescue you. As for your humor in regards to the chinese men "what if all these extra men are subbies in bed and out"? well what if they are Doms and dislike feminists? hum?



rain -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/23/2004 9:22:09 PM)

relay; don't be shy, tell us how you really feel!

you're making many friends already, keep up the good work! [:D]

~rain~



perverseangelic -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 10:42:49 AM)

well, i didn't reply to the last one, so i'll take this one on.


quote:

ORIGINAL: relay
If it were true that a woman was abused and assaulted every 6 seconds as the media suggests our shelters and refuge centers would be on overload capacity which of course is not the case and that is just if there were 10 % who actually reported the crime.


abuse or assault isn't always the kind that puts someone in a shelter. abuse can be a supervisor threatening to fire a woman if she will not sleep with him/her. it can be a boyfriend slapping around his girlfriend. it can be a partner forcing sex on an unwilling woman. it can be someone being verbally harrassed about the size of her breasts. those -are- all asault and abuse based on gender.

note: the same thigns happen to men. as a feminist i find it important to be aware of men's issues too. abuse DOES happen to men, and the men who are abused aren't weak nor do they deserve it, just as the women who are abused.


quote:

The notion that husbands of the 50`s and 60`s were happily oppressing their wives until the feminsts came along in the 70`s is utter nonsense.


you should read The Feminine Mystique. she did the research, and reports it much better than i could.

quote:

If you ask the younger women of today you will see that they are rejecting the hateful nonsense of these againg feminists.


which younger women are you talking to? i think i qualify, here, and so do my fellow university students. i can say with complete assurance i have yet to meet a "younger woman" who has these ideas. and i know LOTS of feminists and non-feminists, even some feminist-haters.

quote:

Did women not go to work when they wanted to back then? Don`t be fooled, life for women is only more pleasant at work and at home today because of the progress in science and technology, it had nothing to do with feminism.


women might not have gone to work because they wanted to, but they also were not given the -choice- If a woman -had- wanted to go to work, and yes, this does happen, before the women's movement, she would not have been able to. or had she been able to work, it would have been as a nurse or secretary or at another woman's job. no, not all women want to work. but now ALL women have the option to work or not to work.

yes, science and technology HAVE made everyone's lives better, i don't think anyone's agruging with you. but that has nothing to do with anything you've said.

quote:

Let us take a look, the streets are less safe for women now than they were 50 years ago. There is more violence against women today.


there's more violence toward EVERYONE. the streets are less safe in general. more violence is not spesifically woman-targeted. also, women are now out in the streets more. they are in places where they are exposed to possible assault. i'm willing to bet you'll say this is a bad thing, but i think that it's a woman's right to be wherever she wishes to be, as long as she is aware of the risks.

quote:

Women are just as overworked now as they ever were. they are less likely to hold on to their marriages. They are less able to afford not to have to work if they are married with children.


yes, women are just as overworked, but they get to chose their kind of overwork. raise kids, keep house vs. have a career and no kids vs have a career and kids vs keep house have no kids vs whatever else they want. i see this as progress.

divorce is rising. why the heck is that the fault of a woman? since when is divorce because a woman "can't hold her man"? i think that's simply faulty thinking.

as for the last bit, i think that's just untrue. sure, it's difficult to stay home and raise your children on one person's income. but people do it all the time. both fathers and mothers stop working in order to be home during their children's formative years. the cost of living has gone up, yes, but this hasn't stopped families from leaving a meember at home with young children. i'm not going to beleive this one unless you can cite me some numbers.

quote:

And new health issues which never existed back then seem to be spouting up for them.


so what? you're going to tell me -this- is feminisms fault? that new diseases have evolved? that we are exposed to more carcinogens and breast cancer rates have gone up. how do you justify that?

quote:

The men of the 50`s and 60`s were brought up to respect women and the message was always being fed through the media the schools and the churches. Today a woman does not get that respect of being the first to get on the lifeboat if the ship is sinking, it`s everybody for themselves. And that`s with every facet of everyday life.


yes, it is, and i say good. women are capable and should be allowed to take care of themselves, for heaven's sake. men were taught to respect women? they were also taught to think of women as flighty, unable to focus, and not capable of thinking for themselves. that's not a kind of respect i value, thanks.

quote:

Deep rooted oppresive behavior expressed by feminists have always had their target to demonise men. Men are caring fathers, men are teachers,


i actually agree with you here. i hate the tendancy of SOME MEMBERS of the womens' movement to demonize men. that's a step backward in my mind. i think we're supposed to be working for equality, not trying to show how evil men can be.

be aware, though, this -isn't- the whole women's movement. it is the veiw of some members.

quote:

men are the courageous ones who will probably save you if no one else will, cause wheter it be the horror of the 9/11 trade center or even someone drowning in a lake, a man will always be the first one to jump in to rescue you.


~sigh~ that's YOUR opinion. and YOUR experience. women are courageous. i promise there were women firefighters and rescue workers at world trade center. there are women lifegaurds, and women heros who risk their lives.

there's no way to oppose this point, though, becasue that is your opinion. if i cite you an example, you'll cite ten more. i'll say that my not being able to find more women rescue people is an example of society as a whole teaching women they cannot be in such places and activly discouraging them, and you'll say that it's because women aren't naturally made to do such work. so. i'm going to leave it at that.

~s



proudsub -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 3:08:32 PM)

quote:

even someone drowning in a lake, a man will always be the first one to jump in to rescue you.


I don't know where you get that from relay. I am a woman and twice i have saved kids that might of drowned if i hadn't "jumped in". Once was in a public pool when a kid jumped in with water wings on and they both came off and the kid sank to the bottom without a struggle. Sure there were men around but it was a woman who jumped in first. The second time was my neice when she fell off a rock in a river and sank to the bottom, and i beat my brother to it in pulling her out. I know he would of if i hadn't but the woman went first. In both cases the kids didn't struggle, and probably didn't even realize they were in trouble. I find that pretty scary.



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 3:42:08 PM)

You ask which younger women ? There are numerous women who work part time and some happen to work along side me. Just yesterday because of this thread being still fresh on my mind i joked with this 22 y/o about the women`s movement ! She responded by saying that the women of my generation messed up alot of good things for them. She goes to school but told me that if she found the right man she would settle down and have kids in a heartbeat ! She added that she thought the women of today were the modern day slaves and that us men have it good because they not only work but they also take care of the kids and the home. There is a law up here in my province about a new born child which the goverment gives the right to either working parent to take a whole year off and be paid to stay with your kid . It also says that you can share the year together 1/2 each. She said that men have gained more out of this law because if they are the only providers they get to stay home paid for a whole year while the wife still does the majority of the child rearing ! I had to agree with her because i know a few of my colleagues who have done just that ! The point i was trying to make on respect and violence is something that you can actually witness in an every day real life situation. I was sitting on a plane when this young chap maybe 25 y/o came on board with his 2 hockey bags that he wanted to stick them both up in the bin compartment, the stewardess maybe 35 y/o told him that he would have to check 1 of the bags and have it put in the belly of the plane. he got all agitated and told her to get out of his face before he`d make her , she responded by saying "is that a threat"? and he reponded with "No that`s a promise" When she did not move he slapped her and ripped the name tag off of her shirt causing her shirt to rip open along with it. exposing her black bra.. a couple of us guys had to restrain him till the proper authorities arrived. I agree with you there is violence everywhere but do you actually think that something like this could have happened in the 50`s with a young male adult ? (not a chance) And where were all those brave women on the plane when the woman was getting hit ? not even one came to her defence. No matter how strong you are if you get 20 women coming to you at once , well you know what i mean..



perverseangelic -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 4:20:39 PM)

" I agree with you there is violence everywhere but do you actually think that something like this could have happened in the 50`s with a young male adult ? "

why yes, yes i do, because there are violent people in all times. i'm sorry that young man was a jerk, but i don't see it as representitive of all men.

in response to your young woman who was opposed to the women's movement. i'm glad you've talked to some of us. and i didn't argue that some people -do- dislike the way the women's movement have advanced women's rights, however as i've said the young woman you work with is now presented with choices.

she -can- settle down with a young man and have children, if she wants to. however, other women, who DON'T want to "settle down with a man and have kids" are now able to.

also, your posts seem to speak to heterosexual women who want to mary and have kids. what about the lesbians and bisexuals you are leaving out of your mother/father/kids model of domestic perfection? i'm thinking -those- young women are probably a little more open to women's rights.



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 4:46:22 PM)

You know Gabrielle i fully understand what you are saying. Indeed men do lay back and actually feel no pressure to work as hard today because they know that opportunities exist for women . I know of some men myself where the wife is the top money earner and the husband is out and about all day goofing around and having breakfast with some of the school moms . Sure he`ll drive the kids to school and make sure they have their lunch and pick them up from school later but that`s where his day ends. Their wives come home and if he can`t cook which is usually the case he resorts to telling her that they should order out or go to a restaurant and treat the kids .When it comes time to do the homework with the kids it`s usually the wife who does that too because remember if he didn`t want to get a high school diploma he surely won`t waste his time reading books . As for the housework if a husband works and the wife is the top breadwinner well she`ll have to do some of that too because women somehow have higher standards when it comes to keeping the house clean > Even though women will contribute more money to the household by working men will not compensate by adding significantly to their housework. usually they resort to hiring purchased services to tend to them or the housework just goes undone. My observation is that this new young generation man will be a more relaxed one without any real pressures to get married or be the provider , and this of course will add substantial years on to his life having a hard working woman who has fought so hard to get that "CHOICE" ! Is it "empowered superior women"? or are you more the "modern day slaves"? ...... btw.. no female bashing intended



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 6:11:11 PM)

I clearly disagree with you about this having happened in the 50`s in public ! During my upbringing in the 60`s and 70`s i did see domestic violence taking place between my uncles and their spouses but never first hand in my house. My Father was a true gentle hard working man who always made reference to why he did not want to associate with members of my Mother`s side and the spouses they married , and i couldn`t of agreed with him more. Because of his good willed nature he was always put through the task of acting like the advisor and peacemaker. You mention lesbians and why i exclude them, well it`s simple "they dislike men", so how can i possibly take them seriously when they ask men to fight for women`s rights?



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 6:30:20 PM)

I `m kind of glad to hear that there is brave women like you and i`m sure those kids have you to thank for them but most women do not have that kind of courage !



perverseangelic -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 7:09:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: relay
You mention lesbians and why i exclude them, well it`s simple "they dislike men", so how can i possibly take them seriously when they ask men to fight for women`s rights?


erm. huh? lesbians aren't sexually attracted to men. in my book, that's a big difference. sure, there are lesbians that "dislike men" there are also women, men and transgendered people that dislike men. again, i don't see how the actions of a few change the motivations of the rest.

anyway, that wasn't what i was saying. i was stating that in your ideal world a family is male/female and a woman is better off when she is staying at home caring for children while her man works. i say again, this excludes people who are not sexually attracted to men.

how do you deal with individuals who are not sexually attracted to men in your world without the feminist movement?



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 7:18:23 PM)

Rain...... pssssssssst... I`ll let you in on a secret..... the french women submissive`s up here don`t speak english very well !



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 7:32:51 PM)

Are you telling me that if we were to eradicate the feminist movement lesbians would have a difficult time being heard ? Then if that were true couldn`t they just call themselves "the lesbian movement" and fight under that banner ?



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 8:06:35 PM)

londonswitch here are some more accurate figures along with the links on population of India and China... http://www.indiachld.com/population_of_india.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-03 As you can see i was not making up these figures off the top of my head !



proudsub -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 8:21:24 PM)

quote:

I `m kind of glad to hear that there is brave women like you and i`m sure those kids have you to thank for them but most women do not have that kind of courage !


Thank you relay but it doesn't take courage to help a child, it's a woman's instinct IMO.



perverseangelic -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/24/2004 9:07:51 PM)

"Are you telling me that if we were to eradicate the feminist movement lesbians would have a difficult time being heard ? Then if that were true couldn`t they just call themselves "the lesbian movement" and fight under that banner ? "

no, no. i'm asking you where lesbians and other female-identified people who are not attracted to men fit into your world.

let's hypothetically erradicate the womens' movement. women return to the home with men to provide for them. what happens to those women that aren't attracted to men?

i'm trying to say that the women's movement has helped to free people of alternate sexualities. because women are not kept out of the workplace, because they are given the same opportunities as men, women who are not interested in men can provide for themselves. lesbians and bisexual people can create stable households with the partners of their choosing.

if women are restricted to what you seem to think is their "place" women of alternate sexualities would not only be denied equal rights to heterosexuals, they would also be denied the ability to express their sexuality. yes, women could have sex with women. no laws can change that. but women could not set up viable households with other people of the same gender. sexual orientation is about more than sex, it's about being able to have an honest-to-god relationship with the person of your choice.

and what would differ a "lesbian movement" from the women's movement as it stands now? those women would be fighting for a right to be who they are- to make their own choices in life. that's what we're doing now.

(edited to fix a dumb typo)



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/25/2004 3:18:02 PM)

Let me put it to you this way. presently there are 2 lesbians living in my house . The house is a duplex, i occupy the bottom half and they share the upper flat >We both have our privacy divided with our own entrance doors. Over the 3 years that they have been my tenants they have never tried to impose their way of looking at life upon me maybe because they know me better, and that`s not to say that we never discussed the lesbian lifestyle. My assessment of all this from what they both told me is that sometimes women do not choose to be a lesbian because they only want to have sex with a woman, there is always something deeper . in their case one of them was emotionally scarred by incest from a male family member. She went on to say that she feels more comfortable living with a woman because of her companionship, her understanding of being a woman and just her genuine love for her. I know she doesn`t repulsively hate men because 2 of her best friends are gay males but they do not associate with straight men unless they have to. So you ask me where do they fit into my world, and i answer you i know what they stand for and it`s not the same thing i stand for so how could we possibly come to terms? Take religion and the Moslems they now feel that because they are legal citizens in this country they now have the right to voice their chant into the open morning sky through a megaphone 5 times a day, they cited that if the Catholic bells can ring on a church tower why can`t they openly chant.. Isn`t our society diverse enough that we have to create another cubicle of space for each individual who has another way of looking at life?



perverseangelic -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/25/2004 4:14:19 PM)

i really think your missing the point of what i'm saying, but since i've given it three attempts i'm going to let the point go now. we're pretty much diametrically opposed and i've never seen an online debate that actually changes anyone's mind. still, i've appreciated the discussion.



yes, moslems -do- have the right to broadcast morning prayers if they are of equal volume to the catholic bells and no louder. that's a constitutionally protected right. (erm. in america. should not assume you're american)

and as to our society being diverse, why yes, it is, and i love it. i look forward to the day with all disparate ideologies can coexist. to that end, while i disagree with your opinion and will oppose it politically and personally, i respect your right to have it and your willingness to debate with me. thank you for the debate.



relay -> RE: Feminism-an excuse for men (4/25/2004 9:02:10 PM)

Yes we are opposed that may be true but the complexity of you`re whole idea that feminism has helped free these people of alternate sexualities makes for a completely different debate. Women who worked in the 50`s and 60`s were not all in the manufacturing sector, there were women who catered specifically to women and only women, some had beauty salons doing hair nails and makeup some had there own cosmetic businesses , some were mid wives who delivered babies, i could also remember going with my Mom in the 60`s at specific shops where women ran some sexy lingerie clothing stores and there wasn`t a man in sight. Surely we can imagine that some of these ladies were already lesbains even then and they seemed to be free to me. It wasn`t as promoted like today but i truly believe that if a woman did not want to be with a man back then, she wouldn`t . Society back then was still evolving they had been though 2 wars and were in a rebuilding stage, the media wasn`t as strong and these issues were considered taboo but everything existed . Human beings have been doing the gay thing ever since life began, we are not the only generation. Feminism is not what freed these alternate sexualities, it is "TIME" and "TIME" itself. The pornography industry along with the evolution of the power of the media and film has all made CHOICE that much easier for people with alternate sexual preference !



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