RE: Feminism and Submission (Full Version)

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Aynne88 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 6:10:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88


You are a woman and don't want to claim that title? Great. Then shut up and sit back and let me do your fighting for you I guess. When you get harassed at work and get less pay and less benefits shut the fuck up. When some man tells you to get back in the kitchen deal with it because you don't want to be labeled a feminist. I am okay with that.


By the way, this^ is appalling.

-ARIES


You haven't seen anything yet Aries. If being blunt and truthful is appalling, I'm going to really appall you often I'm afraid.



Lockit -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 6:21:07 AM)

LOL.. This thread is a great example of why many things haven't been changed. Overly emotional females... daddy issues... man hating issues... women hating other women for not doing the same thing they do. Women fighting for rights caused me to suffer this or that... from either position of male or female.

It's just to early in my day to go to war. Been there, done that and I am sure to go there again, but not this morning. The thing is... it doesn't have to be a war, but whenever someone feels as if something is being taken from them or that they aren't valued, there is going to be some sort of war. Even if it is from those that wish to insult rather than discuss something. Kind of like the forums and this thread.








JeffBC -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 6:53:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
It's just to early in my day to go to war. Been there, done that and I am sure to go there again, but not this morning. The thing is... it doesn't have to be a war, but whenever someone feels as if something is being taken from them or that they aren't valued, there is going to be some sort of war

*nods* Don't get me wrong. I understand that "war on men" aspect. It is, after all, the traditional pattern when those in power are overthrown. I just don't choose to participate in it seeing as I'm one of the men in question. Actually though, as noted by this thread, the war isn't just against men. My second wife got called nasty names by feminists for wearing lipstick and that was a long time ago. That's why I said there's always been this element. Of course, you can also go back and read feminist literature and see the call for not making it a war. My own suspicion is that when there were big targets available (getting the vote), those targets served as a rallying point and occluded the more specious stuff like the wearing of lipstick. So who knows, maybe the neo-conservatives are going to end up doing feminism a favor under the "that which does not kill you..." theory.



Lockit -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 6:57:09 AM)

It's more a war on other human beings in my mind. Standing for some human rights or more fairness, better life or whatever, there is someone that is going to assume, project, object and fight. Productive isn't it? [:D] We've come a long way baby! [:D]



hlen5 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 7:12:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

[image]http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306745_456233151054335_1117489270_n.jpg[/image]



This bears repeating!! I Looooove this pic!!

Enjoy the fray, people.



GotSteel -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 7:17:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Feminism from it's very beginning attracted a certain percentage of hate filled people.


Oppression makes a certain number of people angry. When you're talking about any movement pushing back against oppression they are probably going to be a bit riled up. For instance people walking down the street screaming we're here we're queer get used to it aren't doing so because of how well they've been treated.



hlen5 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 7:28:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

.......Oppression makes a certain number of people angry. When you're talking about any movement pushing back against oppression they are probably going to be a bit riled up. For instance people walking down the street screaming we're here we're queer get used to it aren't doing so because of how well they've been treated.


[sm=flowers.gif] [sm=applause.gif] [sm=flowers.gif]



DesFIP -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 7:48:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Oppression makes a certain number of people angry. When you're talking about any movement pushing back against oppression they are probably going to be a bit riled up. For instance people walking down the street screaming we're here we're queer get used to it aren't doing so because of how well they've been treated.


QFT

As for all those nonfeminist women? You girls ever played a sport in school? Then thank a feminist that there are sports for women. Before Title 9, there weren't. All monies in a school budget went to boys sports.

Want to join the armed services? Thank a feminist.

Want to be a park ranger? A police officer? A doctor? A lawyer? All of these and a host of other professions were closed to women before feminists.



Baroana -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 8:17:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC


Sadly, in recent years it seems the more militant aspects have pretty much taken over.




Examples?



HisPet21 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 8:46:50 AM)

quote:

For some people feminism has always been a search for equality and for others it's always been a war on men.


I think that, this here, is key. I believe in equal rights for both men and women (equally expensive healthcare, the same pay for the same work, equal opportunities, etc). I also believe, as ChatteParfaitt put it, that one should "love and embrace [one's] feminine qualities, as well as the feminine qualities of others, be they male or female." In other words, I don't think men or women should be looked down upon for wanting to raise the kids, or wear a little make-up.

However, I would NEVER call myself a feminist. It's a semantic issue for me, really. The term "feminist" seems to be a muddied one; everyone has a different definition of "feminism" based upon their varying experiences with self-identified feminists. I've had more than one self-identified feminist tell me, to my face, that I was oppressed by the societal patriarchy and "didn't know it" (poor little me [8|]) because obviously, any woman who wants to be submissive to her man can't possibly have her free will intact, right? Obviously, wanting to live in a male dominated household means the mean men have brain washed me, right? But I've also had other feminists tell me that they are all about freedom of choice, and that if submission is right for me, my decision should be respected.

Do you see what I am getting at here? If I call myself a feminist, and leave it at that, I'm allowing people to guess at what, exactly, that makes me. A man hater? A champion of women's rights? A champion of men and women's rights? I'd rather not allow people's impressions of me to be based on their own perception of an ill defined term. I'd rather just say, "I believe in equal rights and freedom of choice for all" and leave it the f*ck at that.



Winterapple -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 8:51:41 AM)

FR

It's depressing that in the 21 century
people are having to fight to be
paid fairly for their work or to have
autonomy over their bodies.

Womens rights are human rights

Denial of women's human rights is
a global issue. There are places
where life is hell for women and
girls. When I think about womens
rights I'm not really concerned with
whether you can be a feminist and
be a submissive in a consensual
bdsm relationship.



chatterbox24 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 8:56:58 AM)

I am glad I can vote. I am glad I have choices. Some women are good staying at home with their families and its enough. For others it is not satisfiying and does not define them completely. They need the outside stimulation to complete them. Then there are the women who have to work to make ends meet and they dont want too because they feel it takes away from their families.
Some women are better bread winners, then the men. Some men are the better parent to stay at home. If  a woman is in the work force and is able to do the equal job the man can, she should not be paid less. Pay should be based on skill not gender.
Without the feminist fightng for our rights, we wouldnt have those choices that are best for us. So  women arguing over who wants to be the little woman and who doesnt really defeats the purpose. I think its really about we are free to chose, and one is no better then the other.




ProlificNeeds -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 8:58:30 AM)

FR


I can't say as I see things quite the same way as most of you. Living in Canada equal healthcare and equal pay as well as equal education opportunities are mandatory and regulated by law now. The only times I see these bent is pay grades at the very upper echelons of big business, or in education, ivy league schools slanting their grants/scholarships.

If anything I see an unfair advantage over men in today's world of sales, in customer service women are prefered as employees, most employers will take a female over a male of same qualifications. Statistically consumers are less likely to get upset with females, and are more likely to be calmed by female service reps.

I don't think feminism should be tossed aside it's a very important and valid cause, but the area I live in doesn't seem to be fighting any sort of war any more, ignorance or favortism based on gender seems to be less of a social issue and more of a 'few bad apples' issue. Jerks will never go away unfortunately. Hell in Toronto it's now legal that anywhere a man can walk around topless inside the city limits, so can a female if they care to. If that's not a sign things have changed drastically I don't know what is.

I think the battle of the feminists is now about removing the negative context of 'man-hating' while still preserving the freedoms and rights(the right to CHOOSE) women have gained.



HisPet21 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:00:15 AM)

quote:

And just as soon as women are paid the same as men for the same work, have the same educational and professional opportunities, the same level of healthcare access and research, and of course, full reproductive rights, I will worry about those poor slighted men.


Alrighty, now this is the kind of attitude I really can't stand. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you essentially saying that we should ignore the gender-based oppression of men, because women and women's issues are more important? Because that is what it sounds like. And that, to me, sounds a little more than bigoted.

I once asked a Gender and Women's Studies professor at my university, "Do you think men can be oppressed, too?" Her reply? "Well, I am sure Black and Mexican men are oppressed...." In other words, she sincerely believed that men do not face any kind of oppression based on their gender. That, my friends, is bullsh*t.

Consider the thousands of men who are looked down upon for being the submissive partner in their relationship, because men are supposed to be tough and dominant. If you allow your gf or wife to hold the decision making power in the household you are "whipped" or a "pussy." What about the stigma against stay at home dads, who don't work at home, but simply cook, clean, and watch the kids. What about that fact that here, in the USA, women win the vast majority of child custody cases (I think it's around 70% or more), because men, by virtue of being men, aren't "nurturing." Why isn't it around 50/50?

Men are oppressed. Women are oppressed. And they both f*cking matter.



GreedyTop -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:00:47 AM)

Much to my surprise, I agree with chatterbox.

NOT to my surprise, I also agree with winterapple and ProlificNeeds (I think the US needs to get up to Canadian speed in these matters LOL)



kalikshama -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:23:54 AM)

quote:

The feminists of this world have forced me to have to go to work instead of taking care of my man and my familly. I have no me time and once I`ve paid for chid care, ferried kids to and fro to get them there, bought quick to prepare foodstuffs etc, I`m no better off financially than should I stay at home.


Well, if you are truly no better off financially, STAY HOME [8|]

It's not the feminists that have made it more difficult to survive on a single income, it's a combination of a greedy consumer culture that includes far more cars, house, vacations and toys than is needed for a good quality life and wealth flowing to the 1% at an unequal rate.

If you were referring to a societal perception that "makes" you work, get better friends. My sister was an attorney on the Microsoft anti trust case and now stays home with her two children. We support her fully.



kalikshama -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:30:23 AM)

quote:

And I never had to pay more than men for insurance as far as I know of but then again I never went around asking men what they paid.


They don't tell you these things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter

Lilly Ledbetter was a supervisor at Goodyear Tire and Rubber’s plant in Gadsden, Alabama, from 1979 until her retirement in 1998. For most of those years, she worked as an area manager, a position largely occupied by men. Initially, Ledbetter’s salary was in line with the salaries of men performing substantially similar work. Over time, however, her pay slipped in comparison to the pay of male area managers with equal or less seniority. By the end of 1997, Ledbetter was the only woman working as an area manager and the pay discrepancy between Ledbetter and her 15 male counterparts was stark: Ledbetter was paid $3,727 per month; the lowest paid male area manager received $4,286 per month, the highest paid, $5,236.[4]

Ledbetter said that the pay disparity led to further inequity in her "overtime pay, contributory retirement, 401(k), and social security." [6]



catize -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:32:01 AM)

~~FAst Reply~~
The feminist movement, in my opinion, boils down to the simplicity of the Equal Rights Amendment which, in its totality states:
Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State on account of sex.
Why has it not been ratified??? It is simple and clear, yet has been voted down by many states. (In Iowa, to my chagrin, it was voted down because the right-wingers said it meant we would have to have uni-sex bathrooms).
Every 'right' we are accorded by the Constitution of the United States has its radical contingents; including (but not limited to) freedom of religion and the right to bear arms.
I don't hate all men, I don't like all women. I am a feminist and forever will be. Those who are complacent about women's rights are just as dangerous as those who are blatantly sexist. .
To fight for equal pay for equal work and equal health care has nothing to do with my choice to submit to a man in my intimate relationships.



kalikshama -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:32:28 AM)

quote:

What about the stigma against stay at home dads, who don't work at home, but simply cook, clean, and watch the kids.

When my former manager quit his job another coworker and I encouraged him to become a stay-at-home dad. It's not a universal stigma.

quote:

What about that fact that here, in the USA, women win the vast majority of child custody cases (I think it's around 70% or more), because men, by virtue of being men, aren't "nurturing." Why isn't it around 50/50?

I'd like to see stats that shows it's 70% that have WON custody cases verses 70% of mothers have custody because the father didn't oppose it.



JanahX -> RE: Feminism and Submission (7/1/2012 9:37:40 AM)

Are you actually blaming everyone else for your poor decisions? - Are you so delusional that you thought that having kid(S), gas, food, housing -was going to be free? Oh - and I feel so BAD for you that all of this is TAKING UP YOUR FREE TIME so you cant take CARE OF YOUR MAN. What a horrible dilemma you are in.

Fuck off and get your ass to work and pay your taxes like EVERYONE else has to - I love the way you cast blame on everyone else, because YOUR LIFE SUCKS. Reading the context of your post makes me TOTALLY understand why.

quote:

ORIGINAL: atameamo

I totaly agree with Aries83. The feminists of this world have forced me to have to go to work instead of taking care of my man and my familly. I have no me time and once I`ve paid for chid care, ferried kids to and fro to get them there, bought quick to prepare foodstuffs etc, I`m no better off financially than should I stay at home. Who missed out? We all did. Who gained anything? No-one but the taxman. I`d love to have lived the 1950`s when women were coiffed and polished, stayed home and cooked good meals and took care of their own kids education. A smack on the arse is a compliment for gods sake.




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