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SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 8:36:43 AM   
kalikshama


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SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost?

In 2004, Carolina Izquierdo, an anthropologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, spent several months with the Matsigenka, a tribe of about twelve thousand people who live in the Peruvian Amazon. The Matsigenka hunt for monkeys and parrots, grow yucca and bananas, and build houses that they roof with the leaves of a particular kind of palm tree, known as a kapashi. At one point, Izquierdo decided to accompany a local family on a leaf-gathering expedition down the Urubamba River.

A member of another family, Yanira, asked if she could come along. Izquierdo and the others spent five days on the river. Although Yanira had no clear role in the group, she quickly found ways to make herself useful. Twice a day, she swept the sand off the sleeping mats, and she helped stack the kapashi leaves for transport back to the village. In the evening, she fished for crustaceans, which she cleaned, boiled, and served to the others. Calm and self-possessed, Yanira “asked for nothing,” Izquierdo later recalled. The girl’s behavior made a strong impression on the anthropologist because at the time of the trip Yanira was just six years old.

While Izquierdo was doing field work among the Matsigenka, she was also involved in an anthropological study closer to home. A colleague of hers, Elinor Ochs, had recruited thirty-two middle-class families for a study of life in twenty-first-century Los Angeles. Ochs had arranged to have the families filmed as they ate, fought, made up, and did the dishes.

Izquierdo and Ochs shared an interest in many ethnographic issues, including child rearing. How did parents in different cultures train young people to assume adult responsibilities? In the case of the Angelenos, they mostly didn’t. In the L.A. families observed, no child routinely performed household chores without being instructed to. Often, the kids had to be begged to attempt the simplest tasks; often, they still refused. In one fairly typical encounter, a father asked his eight-year-old son five times to please go take a bath or a shower. After the fifth plea went unheeded, the father picked the boy up and carried him into the bathroom. A few minutes later, the kid, still unwashed, wandered into another room to play a video game.

In another representative encounter, an eight-year-old girl sat down at the dining table. Finding that no silverware had been laid out for her, she demanded, “How am I supposed to eat?” Although the girl clearly knew where the silverware was kept, her father got up to get it for her.

In a third episode captured on tape, a boy named Ben was supposed to leave the house with his parents. But he couldn’t get his feet into his sneakers, because the laces were tied. He handed one of the shoes to his father: “Untie it!” His father suggested that he ask nicely.

“Can you untie it?” Ben replied. After more back-and-forth, his father untied Ben’s sneakers. Ben put them on, then asked his father to retie them. “You tie your shoes and let’s go,’’ his father finally exploded. Ben was unfazed. “I’m just asking,’’ he said.

A few years ago, Izquierdo and Ochs wrote an article for Ethos, the journal of the Society of Psychological Anthropology, in which they described Yanira’s conduct during the trip down the river and Ben’s exchange with his dad. “Juxtaposition of these developmental stories begs for an account of responsibility in childhood,” they wrote. Why do Matsigenka children “help their families at home more than L.A. children?” And “Why do L.A. adult family members help their children at home more than do Matsigenka?” Though not phrased in exactly such terms, questions like these are being asked—silently, imploringly, despairingly—every single day by parents from Anchorage to Miami. Why, why, why?

With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled.

The notion that we may be raising a generation of kids who can’t, or at least won’t, tie their own shoes has given rise to a new genre of parenting books. Their titles tend to be either dolorous (“The Price of Privilege”) or downright hostile (“The Narcissism Epidemic,” “Mean Moms Rule,” “A Nation of Wimps”). The books are less how-to guides than how-not-to’s: how not to give in to your toddler, how not to intervene whenever your teen-ager looks bored, how not to spend two hundred thousand dollars on tuition only to find your twenty-something graduate back at home, drinking all your beer.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert#ixzz1zZfImeDQ

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 4:36:54 PM   
Baroana


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Eh....I don't know. I don't have kids, spoiled or otherwise, so I have no personal experience to draw from. I don't know how much can really be made of generalizations about how "kids today" are helpless and entitled. Every family is different.

It does seem as though nowadays there are more material gizmos flooding the market than ever before. But does all that shit really destroy a person's character? I think it probably makes us more fat ... but rotting our souls from the inside out? That view seems a bit alarmist.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 4:57:29 PM   
Kaliko


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I have a hard time with it when we talk about how "privileged" kids are today. I think that every generation has more stuff then the previous one, and in twenty years we will be feeling nostalgic for the days when children had only iPods and Wii's to play with. We will wonder why that future generation can't survive on what the current one has today and we will call them spoiled. On another note, I believe that having electronics such as iPods and Kindles is becoming more necessary these days. Schools are beginning "Bring Your Own Device" programs for classwork at younger ages. It's not a matter of spoiling with electronics. It's a matter of - this is the world we live in now.

As far as behavior of children....well, I'll just take a guess, but I don't know if it's correct: If those children of the Matsigenka willingly go about their work at a young age, it is likely because they see their siblings and friends do the same. They haven't learned to act out the way that, say, American children have. Snide remarks about and to authority figures from children abound on children's TV shows. They learn their behavior.

And, as a mom myself, I will admit to sometimes doing things for my child because it's simply easier for me. We wish we could be more perfect parents, but I don't beat myself up for it. She may have a messy room and sometimes stays up too late, but there are more important things to worry about, in my mind. So perhaps, "spoiled" is in the eye of the beholder. And the researcher. I can honestly say that I don't believe my child is spoiled, but my definition of spoiled may be different than another's, so...who knows.

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 7/3/2012 5:27:50 PM >

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 6:23:44 PM   
Baroana


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Moreover, much of what's in this article is the same tired routine each generation gives the next:

"You kids today are so spoiled; you have it so much better than we did; there are children your age halfway across the world that clean their own huts and don't complain......blah blah blah"

I do not believe that the young people today who go back to live with their parents after college and/or graduate school are doing so because their parents didn't force them to tie their own shoes or set the table. From what I've seen, it's due to the downward mobility in America over the last few decades.

People can say until they're blue in the face that teens, twenty-somethings, and thirty-somethings today are "spoiled" and "entitled." Oh well... whatever. Even if that was the case as we kids grew up, we're getting a rude awakening now, the likes of which our parents and possibly even our grandparents never experienced.

I work longer and harder than my parents ever did, and I have less to show for it. When my father was 30, he bought a house in a nice neighborhood. Today, I'm almost 35. I'm a fucking lawyer, yet I cannot even see the day coming when I will be able to buy a house in any neighborhood, let alone the one I grew up in.

There isn't as much wealth for the taking in this country as there used to be. It's been hoarded by the ultra-rich, or it's gone overseas. We used to take it as truth that if we work our asses off, we will do all right. But that's not always true. Ask the people of the third world.

I do know one thing that has certainly changed in America since the time when I was a small child. No longer is it acceptable to use the old standby parenting device of beat the crap out of your kids until they do what you want. Inquiring minds want to know whether the Matsigenka take the same view of corporal punishment. Inquiring minds also want to know how much better, smarter, and more useful those French and Japanese kids really are.

< Message edited by Baroana -- 7/3/2012 6:28:01 PM >

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 6:52:28 PM   
Nikkegirl322


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I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of stuff that children have. It is all to easy to blame such issues on the material wealth of the family, but I would rather point to the lack of respect american children have towards their parents as well as the lack of dedication american parents have in their children. While this by no means is the norm amunst all American families it is certainly trending behaviour. Going back to the tribe and the Angelenos, while the american parents would never dream of giving a child under 10 a knife, the tribal parents would do so without much thought, and the vise versa could be said of an iphone. The difference lies in how the children are allowed to use such material possessions. The tribe will give the child a knife because they hope the child will engage in chores and duties to help the tribe. The 6yo was catching and cleaning crustaceans for meals for example. This child must have been using some tools and had access to boiling water in the processs. Despite all of this danger the child performed the task. In my opinion, the reality is those tribal parents do not tolerant idiot behavior, if that child tried to knife fight with others. it would have been removed. If the child had done nothing but sass the adults and not help around the trip, she would have been left home the next time.

Every day in America, we will give our child the iphone and give them unrestricted access to everything it has to offer and pay little attention to the child's use of such device. We assume give them the device so they are entertained and we don't have to deal with our own child. Then there is such shock on the parent's face when their 12yo girl was having sexual discussions with a 40yo man and sendind naked photos to him. Even more shocking they lack the cognative ability to properly punish the child for such innappropriate behavior. They will either lash out in a sadistic and inappropriat manner, or perform a generally useless talk and scolding where the phone isn't even removed from their possession for any period of time. Rather than putting in the work and time and effort to find constructive activities for our children we often slap technology right in front of them to 'pacify' them only. Sure children need to become familiar with and use technology to be successful in life, we just need to guide them in the use of that technology as well as monitor the use of such technology untill they are adults.

Finally getting to the very behavior of the Angeleno children. Parents were frustrated and unable to get their children to do their bidding. While I feel no child should be a slave to their parents whimsy, they sould be respectful and dutiful. There is one common theme amung those parents though, the children felt their parents commands and threats were idle and less than serious. It is not that we have beat our children and make them fear us, we need a steady and consistant approach towards them. One where we establish dominance, show a caring loving approach and provide strict boundaries of conduct and character. If we threaten a child with a punishment they have to believe that we will carry it out without a chance of parole. That punishment should seem rational and fair based on the offense and it should be doled out without malice, using a calm voice. Secondly, we should never ever take orders from a child. Sure they can ask for your help etc, but should never be allowed to demand it. Finally we need to be with them and commit our time to them in a manner that shows we care and love them. Even if we have rules and say no more often than yes, they will respect us if they know we love them.

While I know that this is somewhat idealistic, and we could never perform totally to exacting standards, it is something to strive toward. Just my humble opinion, and my feelings on the subject.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/3/2012 7:31:37 PM   
thompsonx


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I do not think kids are spoiled...that is just how they smell.
I do believe that I remember from roman history cicero bemoaing the lack of respect he noticed from the younger generation. So it may be a generational thingie. My niece has an 8 year old and if she were to ask an adult to tie her shoes even her little sister would laugh her out of the house.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/4/2012 5:21:52 AM   
LaTigresse


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It's an environment thing.

I remember when Generic Dude and I got together, his grandmother was appauled that I expected my kids(ages 9 and 10) to fix their own plates at a family dinner.

When the grands are here, I expect them to do for themself as they are able. That also means that, when they don't do it the way I would, I don't freak out on them. If they spill the juice, I hand them a towel, then the wet rag to scrub the residue. The juice gets poured, the spill gets cleaned up, we move on. When I cook, they are allowed to join in as much as it is safe. They enjoy it. I get the feeling that my house is the only place they've ever cracked an egg or measured out flour. Someday those boys will be able to rock a chocolate chip cookie recipe!

But consider that, most families are so damned busy they often don't even have the time or energy to cook a proper meal. Most I know spend much more time ferrying kids from one activity to another than I ever did. One set of in-laws, they cannot even attend any of their three kids activities together as a family because there is always one or two of the others with something going on somewhere else. Mom will drop Maddie off at tennis, while taking Logan to soccer and dad will be with Nate at hockey. Mom and dad, talking constantly on the phone, working out which will be able to pick Maddie up from tennis, Logan to this or that, then maybe, just maybe, they will all get home to watch movies while eating pizza, by 8pm. It's crazy stuff.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/4/2012 6:09:43 PM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

So perhaps, "spoiled" is in the eye of the beholder.




You might be correct about that. The New Yorker article was one person's subjective opinion on who's spoiled and who isn't. The opening story about six year-old Yanira irritated me. The tone of it was spot on with the speeches my mother and father used to give me about how so-and-so's kid is sooo perfect compared to me.... yada yada yada.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/4/2012 6:28:13 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I was about to say 'it's an ethnic thing' but it isnt. Our neighbour was my latchkey person. Four daughters in that house, and everyone did housework. When I was allowed my own housekey (age ten, magic!) I had a different chore each day, change the bed linens, laundry, vacuuming, dusting, etc. If an ADULT said to do something, it was done.

Were we motivated by fear? Partly. No one around me was abusive, but everyone knew that there would be some consequence for disobedience. "Pick up your toys and put them away please" was not a REQUEST.

Parents are too much friends, not enough role models. Too much is shifted onto others. Too much is planned for the kids.

I'm only a little scared. :/

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/5/2012 7:47:50 AM   
thishereboi


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While I agree that we are producing more brats every day. I am not sure you can point to one thing as the cause. I cringe at some of the things kids say to their parents today. I would have had my face slapped for a lot less. I think there are a lot of parents who are afraid their kids won't like them if they try to discipline them and that doesn't help anything. But to try and compare a child raised in LA to a child raised in a tribe of 12,000 in the Peruvian Amazon is just silly.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/5/2012 8:24:13 AM   
cloudboy


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I thought the central theme of that article was to let children develop a sense of their own responsibility without hovering and doting. Instead of nagging and parental agenda setting, set an example of a purposeful, non materialistic life.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/5/2012 8:56:27 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

I'd vote for LaTigress as mom or grandmom to any of my kids, if I had any.

It cannot escape notice here, even though my Spanish class was more than twenty years ago, that the author's name means 'left,' in Spanish.

It amazed me how much crap one of my sisters put up with from her kids sometimes, but she had an uncanny sense of when to crack the whip with her kids. Her and my mom (the same one) just cracked the whip from the outset. All three of her (mom's) daughters did it differently, both from her as much as differently than each other. Whatever 'brats' the kids might otherwise be, once an uncle or aunt shows up, they are all kind of 'respectful,' and all ears, to boot.

Amazing how the kids, with such distinctly different personalities, different upbringings, in different regions, all have nearly the same social mannerisms.

Don't look for any 'formula' here, folks, however much the author is just a 'journalista' being yet another f*ckhead 'journalist' and digging (in today's world of media, actually 'gigging') where she has no clue, because that's what she was hired for. Some editor wanted it, the author puked it, there we have it. Congrats to her for that paycheck.

You would not believe how much good parenting can transpire even in far less than 'perfect' parenting.

"Good story" is all this stupid article is about. Nothing more.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/5/2012 9:36:14 AM >

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/5/2012 12:36:15 PM   
Hillwilliam


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I blame this man to a large extent.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0502.html

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/6/2012 8:05:57 PM   
YSG


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Its pretty simple as to why so many kids are so horrible today: They lack discipline. If I had acted like any of those LA kids, my old man would have hauled me up and whupped me good.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/7/2012 12:52:14 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I blame this man to a large extent.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0502.html

why

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/7/2012 1:17:17 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I blame this man to a large extent.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0502.html

why

Benjamin Spock was the first mainstream author who said "Don't spank your children" (Note I said spank, not beat hell out of) It warps their deveopment. Every non corporal punishment movement can be traced to him.

I'm sorry but when I was young, my parents didnt put me in 'time out'. My parents took 'time out' from their busy schedule to bust my ass.


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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/7/2012 1:32:42 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I blame this man to a large extent.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0502.html

why

Benjamin Spock was the first mainstream author who said "Don't spank your children" (Note I said spank, not beat hell out of) It warps their deveopment. Every non corporal punishment movement can be traced to him.

I'm sorry but when I was young, my parents didnt put me in 'time out'. My parents took 'time out' from their busy schedule to bust my ass.



Perhaps if your parents had read spock and discussed with you the reasons for your aberant behaviour you would not be the intolerant obnoxious individual you are today...that is if one believes in nurture rather than nature.
If on the other hand one believes nature to be the dominant force then nothing could have prevented the enevitable.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/7/2012 1:41:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Perhaps if your parents had read spock and discussed with you the reasons for your aberant behaviour you would not be the intolerant obnoxious individual you are today...that is if one believes in nurture rather than nature.
If on the other hand one believes nature to be the dominant force then nothing could have prevented the enevitable.


Now there's a pot calling a kettle black tommie lad.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/7/2012 3:11:55 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Perhaps if your parents had read spock and discussed with you the reasons for your aberant behaviour you would not be the intolerant obnoxious individual you are today...that is if one believes in nurture rather than nature.
If on the other hand one believes nature to be the dominant force then nothing could have prevented the enevitable.


Now there's a pot calling a kettle black tommie lad.


If others find the truth to be intolerant or obnoxious that would seem to me to be a personal problem. But I digress ;
we were discussing spock and his admonition against corporal punishment. You will note,if you have read much of his work, that he does not eschew discipline.

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RE: SPOILED ROTTEN - Why do kids rule the roost? - 7/9/2012 11:46:30 PM   
angellilone


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To a point every child should be spoiled. I believe its in how you go about doing it. I have been a single Mom since my son was 6 months old and until just recently everything was wonderful. The inevitable teen years hit. But honestly I do believe that as long as your child knows where the boundaries are and whats expected. it will work. There will always be times that you need to talk with your child but every child needs chores as part of a family without gettin paid for it.

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