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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/11/2012 10:34:17 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I never mentioned anything about religion. There are many including pagans and atheists that are against abortion.

I've never seen one call it "murder" (not saying that none do). That seems reserved for the Bible Beaters.


And since it's "murder", I want to know whether it's life in prison or the death penalty for the mother, doctor and nurses involved in the procedure. Also, should prison/death be extended to the office staff who books appointments, and handles paperwork?

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/11/2012 10:48:27 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		I know plenty of non and anti christian people who feel abortion is the killing of a human life. It has nothing to do about when it has a soul. Personally I have never been interested in the debate about when it has a soul, I know by 22 days there is a heartbreat. But we will have to agree to disagree. You are welcome to your opinion as I am welcome to mine.

godlessprolife is a site I know of off hand and I have seen pegan groups off and on. I do not pay a lot of attention since I am not active in any sort of anti abortion movement, I simply have my own opinion on abortion. Religion has nothing to do with my views. I actually came to my views through my own pregnancies and seeing my children on ultrasounds, not at a church. You are entitled to your opinion and I would never make assumptions about your life or views based on your views of abortion. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this issue and go on with life.

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/11/2012 11:01:34 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I know plenty of non and anti christian people who feel abortion is the killing of a human life. It has nothing to do about when it has a soul. Personally I have never been interested in the debate about when it has a soul, I know by 22 days there is a heartbreat.



So, you're a vegetarian then? Your standard appears to be "Has a heartbeat" now.

Would you please stick to a single standard please. I feel you're "Moving the goalposts" just to avoid answering what are simple, clear questions....

And you still haven't answered whether since you think abortion is murder, the mother, doctor, med-techs, nurses, and office staff should go to prison for life, or just be executed. Given your "heartbeat" standard ( Which, btw, a chicken would pass. You don't eat chicken, do you? After all "Fried Chicken Is Murder!" right???

So, is it life in prison or the death penalty for the mother?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/11/2012 6:26:27 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I've got to say if fargle was treating me the way he's been treating you I would have blocked him by now. That said he's accused you of religious motivation for your position because the stuff about pain and the heartbeat very obviously aren't what actually convinced you to your current position.

It's the sort of vapid junk that Christians tend to hide behind when they're aware that their actual position is indefensible. As a tactic it can bring a discussion to a standstill because shoveling bullshit is faster than debunking it. Problem in this case is that the people you're talking to aren't falling for it, we've seen the tactic before. All you're doing right now is convincing your audience that you don't have a leg to stand on.

I'd suggest talking about what actually convinced you be it intellectual arguments, emotional feelings, experiential revelations, religious dogma or whatever. That way you'll be talking about something that at least one person found compelling.

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/11/2012 7:49:47 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I know plenty of non and anti christian people who feel abortion is the killing of a human life. It has nothing to do about when it has a soul. Personally I have never been interested in the debate about when it has a soul, I know by 22 days there is a heartbreat. But we will have to agree to disagree. You are welcome to your opinion as I am welcome to mine.

godlessprolife is a site I know of off hand and I have seen pegan groups off and on. I do not pay a lot of attention since I am not active in any sort of anti abortion movement, I simply have my own opinion on abortion. Religion has nothing to do with my views. I actually came to my views through my own pregnancies and seeing my children on ultrasounds, not at a church. You are entitled to your opinion and I would never make assumptions about your life or views based on your views of abortion. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this issue and go on with life.

You use the word "soul" and talk about aetheists wanting to proteCt it.
99.999999% things have a heartbeat that arent human.

I'm calling BULLSHIT

Documentation please?

I went to the website you mentioned and there is no evidence that it is more than ONE person.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/11/2012 7:54:35 PM >

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 12:13:58 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Can we please drop the pretense that the anti-abortion movement is non-religious and non-sectarian?

Here in Australia opposition to abortion is almost a monopoly of religious groups hiding behind a banner of "right to Life'. Across the West, the personnel, the organisations, the motivations, the discourses, the terminology are all emphatically dominated by Christians and Christian thinking. The attempt to dress anti-abortion arguments up in a veneer of scientific jargon is patently transparent. What self respecting scientist would ever talk about a 'soul' in any scientific context? I'd suggest that anti-abortionist's attitudes towards evolution tell us far more about their attitudes towards science.

Overwhelmingly the debate is a moral and political debate. Attempts to outlaw abortion, for reasons of Christian philosophy, bring to mind some of the worst features of theocracies. Perhaps this is why the Religious Right is so troubled by Islamic fundamentalism. Perhaps deep down, they know. as well as I know, that fundamentalists have far more in common with each other despite their apparently conflicting ideologies

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/12/2012 12:19:54 AM >

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 7:47:28 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Can we please drop the pretense that the anti-abortion movement is non-religious and non-sectarian?

Sadly, I don't think we can. That would make a ridiculous position look even less defensible in rational terms than it does already.

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 8:33:49 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
"Fried Chicken Is Murder!"


Fargle, have you been hanging out with PETA?

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 8:37:33 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I went to the website you mentioned and there is no evidence that it is more than ONE person.


To be fair the site does claim 6 posters....who haven't touched it in a decade. Making it less well done and well used than that site which claims the earth is flat. http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 9:08:54 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You use the word "soul" and talk about aetheists wanting to proteCt it.


To be fair to her she's only talking about a soul in order to refute Fargles claim:
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
So, since it's the SOUL you care about, saying that it's not about religion is not participating in Good Faith.


To be fair to the she's-secretly-religious conspiracy theory, she uses the word "when" implying a belief that the soul does exist at some point in time where as the strongest pro-soul language I'd expect from the non religious or even fence sitters would be "if":
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes
It has nothing to do about when it has a soul.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 9:22:47 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Can we please drop the pretense that the anti-abortion movement is non-religious and non-sectarian?


She said she wasn't against abortion for religious reasons and said she knew others who weren't either. I didn't see anything that claimed the anti-abortion movement is non-religious or non-sectarian.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Here in Australia opposition to abortion is almost a monopoly of religious groups hiding behind a banner of "right to Life'. Across the West, the personnel, the organisations, the motivations, the discourses, the terminology are all emphatically dominated by Christians and Christian thinking. The attempt to dress anti-abortion arguments up in a veneer of scientific jargon is patently transparent. What self respecting scientist would ever talk about a 'soul' in any scientific context? I'd suggest that anti-abortionist's attitudes towards evolution tell us far more about their attitudes towards science.

Overwhelmingly the debate is a moral and political debate. Attempts to outlaw abortion, for reasons of Christian philosophy, bring to mind some of the worst features of theocracies. Perhaps this is why the Religious Right is so troubled by Islamic fundamentalism. Perhaps deep down, they know. as well as I know, that fundamentalists have far more in common with each other despite their apparently conflicting ideologies

quote:

Here in Australia opposition to abortion is almost a monopoly of religious groups hiding behind a banner of "right to Life'. Across the West, the personnel, the organisations, the motivations, the discourses, the terminology are all emphatically dominated by Christians and Christian thinking. The attempt to dress anti-abortion arguments up in a veneer of scientific jargon is patently transparent. What self respecting scientist would ever talk about a 'soul' in any scientific context? I'd suggest that anti-abortionist's attitudes towards evolution tell us far more about their attitudes towards science.

Overwhelmingly the debate is a moral and political debate. Attempts to outlaw abortion, for reasons of Christian philosophy, bring to mind some of the worst features of theocracies. Perhaps this is why the Religious Right is so troubled by Islamic fundamentalism. Perhaps deep down, they know. as well as I know, that fundamentalists have far more in common with each other despite their apparently conflicting ideologies


And somehow that proves that all athiests are pro-choice? Sorry, not seeing the logic. Personally if she said she has her own reasons for being proilfe that have nothing to do with God, then i am going to take her word for it.

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 9:23:57 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
"Fried Chicken Is Murder!"


Fargle, have you been hanging out with PETA?



It's a step up from his claim that you can't be pro-life if you are willing to eat lettuce.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 11:38:05 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
"Fried Chicken Is Murder!"


Fargle, have you been hanging out with PETA?


Nope. But it's a direct consequence of the "We can't kill anything with a heartbeat" or "We can't kill anything which feels pain" stance, so there it is.

If you're "Pro-Life", but not a vegan, you're full of shit.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 12:13:03 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		A number of studies have shown that plants feel pain, and vegetables are picked and often eaten while still alive. Animal rights activists are often in the news, but has anyone ever protested for vegetable rights?

...It seems none of you understand the definition of "pain." Pain is defined as a signal of present or impending tissue damage affected by a harmful stimulus, and thus is experienced by almost all multicellular organisms. The question isn't whether or not plants feel pain, the question is why is it okay to cause pain to plants but not animals? Keep in mind not all plants react to pain in the same way. Not all animals feel pain the same way (e.g. lobsters). This is part of a much more complex argument. We need to ask some tough questions. Is it wrong to harm people? Do plants and animals have the same rights as people (to be free from harm)? Do they have any rights at all? What kind of diet is within our nature and why should we second-guess doing what is natural? Good luck.

Randall, Cleveland US

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RE: Georgia Doctors Terrorised By Anti-Abortion Nuts... - 7/12/2012 12:19:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Personally I have never been interested in the debate about when it has a soul, I know by 22 days there is a heartbreat.


By 22 days there is a heart tube.



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