RE: American Socialism

RE: American Socialism (Full Version)

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joether -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:10:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead You wouldn't say that because said organizations are funded through taxes raised under a capitalist system rather than run through voluntary co-operation in a post capitalist society that disqualifies them as socialist, then? If your going to argue that, than I could argue that people purchase things based on impluse rather than careful study. Is that 'capitalism' or 'anarchy'? Actually, once you give the money in the form of taxes to the goverment, the money is no longer your money. Its the goverment's money. So if the goverment is spending its money, is it for organizations and entities of a 'capitalistic' or 'socialistic' nature? Lets assume for the sake of the thread, that tese are the only two or three types of economic situations.

tazzygirl -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:17:17 PM)
Ok.. Moon... I luvs ya... but you just lost me.. low flying planes I guess.. and I probably should have understood... but meds are kicking my butt... mind dumbing that down for me a bit?

Moonhead -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:26:59 PM)
One thing that discussions of "socialism" sometimes overlook is that any revenue raised by taxation is dependent on the existence of a capitalist system. The socialist ideal is supposed to abandon the monetary system and all of the stuff that goes with it. There's actually a few smalllish scale communes that have managed (or manage) to work on the Marxist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" system rather than a monetary one, dig?

tazzygirl -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:32:49 PM)
Yeah, I get that. But, by your definition, nothing in the US, with the exception of Ithica, NY and their Ithica dollars, would be included. Am I understanding you correctly?

thompsonx -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:33:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead One thing that discussions of "socialism" sometimes overlook is that any revenue raised by taxation is dependent on the existence of a capitalist system. The socialist ideal is supposed to abandon the monetary system and all of the stuff that goes with it. There's actually a few smalllish scale communes that have managed (or manage) to work on the Marxist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" system rather than a monetary one, dig? As I read socialism as it is practiced, the rule is "from each according to their ability to each according to what they produce. With the "withering away of the dictatorship of the proletariat" it is suppose to move to communism which is from each according to their ability and to each according to their need. Did they change something and me not get the memo?

tazzygirl -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:50:20 PM)
World English Dictionary socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm) — n 1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels 2. any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system 3. (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need Can we agree on these?

Jussard -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 2:52:32 PM)
Obviously a lot depends on your personal definitions, but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien. Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box.

Moonhead -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 3:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Yeah, I get that. But, by your definition, nothing in the US, with the exception of Ithica, NY and their Ithica dollars, would be included. Am I understanding you correctly? Pretty much, yeah. I'd probably be a bit less pedantic if there hadn't been the best part of four years' worth of drivel about teh kenyan being a Marxist, but even so, raising funds (for whatever purpose) through taxation doesn't imply that society's becoming more collectivised or capitalism is in its death throes to me.

thompsonx -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 3:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jussard Obviously a lot depends on your personal definitions, I like to go to the source for definition and tazz has shown her always exellent google skills so my age does not seem to have addled too much my memory. quote: but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien. Perhaps from that distance it may seem that way to you but rest assured that the demopubs and the republicrats are the same fascist entity that only the most guilable would believe actually differed in substance. quote: Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box. The fire services are a paid (and quite well) position. We also have "volunteer" fire services which are not paid but they represent a rather small double digit percentage of the total force of the fire service.

thompsonx -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 3:37:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl World English Dictionary socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm) — n 1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels 2. any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system 3. (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need Can we agree on these? That is pretty much what I remember from the poly sci classes I took.

Jussard -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 4:07:34 PM)
quote: but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien. Perhaps from that distance it may seem that way to you but rest assured that the demopubs and the republicrats are the same fascist entity that only the most guilable would believe actually differed in substance. That's essentially My point - right end of the spectrum with barely light between them. I guess what gap there is in the vertical axis rather than the horizontal. quote: Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box. The fire services are a paid (and quite well) position. We also have "volunteer" fire services which are not paid but they represent a rather small double digit percentage of the total force of the fire service. Thanks - happy to be corrected on issues I'm unexposed to.

erieangel -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 4:28:47 PM)
What is left of the state mental hospital system is/was socialist. Community based mental health care is socialist. Free school lunches. The state system of higher education.

Politesub53 -> RE: American Socialism (7/20/2012 5:33:09 PM)
Free education for children is a socialist policy. Except it isnt free, it comes from taxes. It seems to me those who knock socialism want to cherrypick how taxes are spent. Back in Victorian times many philanthorpists got rich from capitalism and supported social policies. IE, some supplied housing for the workforce they had. Poor housing by todays standards but a luxury by standards of the time. Schooling for kids and a from of medical care were also provided. One reason being those with money saw that a contented, well fed and healthy workforce were more productive. So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist.

thompsonx -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 2:11:39 PM)
quote: That's essentially My point - right end of the spectrum with barely light between them. I guess what gap there is in the vertical axis rather than the horizontal. From my vantage point there is no light between them they are one in the same. If there were not the circus about what color the president is and one were to look only at actions, how would one tell the difference? Were still in the sandbox and we are still in gitmo...same shit different flys.

thompsonx -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 2:17:49 PM)
quote: So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist. If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same. The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly. Monopoly breeds economies of scale. The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism. whadyatink?

Moonhead -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 2:20:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist. If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same. The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly. Monopoly breeds economies of scale. The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism. whadyatink? Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me.

JeffBC -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 2:28:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me. I'm not a poli-sci major but that matches my understanding also. And I also have to admit that while I think the greed motive is nice and dependable I also think I don't want to live in a society where that is the only measure which matters. That is capitalism without "regulation". It is placing greed above any other consideration.

Politesub53 -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 4:54:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist. If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same. The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly. Monopoly breeds economies of scale. The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism. whadyatink? An interesting point that is fair enough. If you think of it, the original capitalist entities operated on behalf of the state anyway, while at the same time being independent. IE, both worked in the others interest.

Politesub53 -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 4:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me. Surely it is the opposite if it is fully inclusive, which fascist regimes havent been up to now ? I dont see why corporations cant work for the public good. Edits to make my point as clear as I can.... A State working as a corporation for the benefit of all. I may be wrong but i think thats what Thompson was getting at, and if so, I agree with him.

tazzygirl -> RE: American Socialism (7/21/2012 5:02:34 PM)
quote: A State working as a corporation for the benefit of all. I may be wrong but i think thats what Thompson was getting at, and if so, I agree with him. So that is your definition of socialism?

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