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RE: outraged RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 12:30:16 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Why is it the people who don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, and don't pay ANY federal tax, are usually the ones who are the most vocal in worrying about how the rich shelter money the rich have EARNED? Maybe worry that their gravy train might end?


If you think about it, it is quite hard to not pay any federal taxes. The moment you pay to get one gallon of gas for your vehicle, is giving money to the US Goverment. Not to mention buying food, tobacco, guns, ammo, houses, etc. Since those businesses you purchased from have to pay taxes. Taxes to them are like any other expense, and so get 'passed on to the buyer'. So you see, it *IS* quite hard to *NOT* pay federal taxes, right?

The folks most vocal about the rich not paying their fair share come from those that have sat down and actually used higher brain mathematics and information. You seem unable to attain that level of understanding, given your rant. I could attempt to explain....why....the US Income Tax is set up as a progressive tax and not (as all the Republicans would LOVE to have) a flat tax. But I'd have to sacrifice the good information dumbing the narration to your level of educational knowledge (i.e. 6th grader). Dont like being insulting like this? Then why dont you go take some course work on finance, economics, and business from a local college or university. They generally lower the cost if your not talking a degree program (even lower if your over a certain age in some places). You might actually learn....WHY....your rants are laughable and silly.

Being an informed citizen is....YOUR....duty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Also the people who think government is infalible and wisely spends our tax maney.


The US Goverment is made up of US Citizens. The goverment does make mistakes, and sometimes must pay more money fixing them. Just like an ordinary citizen whom screws up (runs the red light and smashes into another car) and must pay additional costs (fixing the other guy's car). If your so perfect at everything you do, ok, you can blame the goverment. But I suspect your just as bad at making mistakes as the next person. So what's that make you? A hypocrit!

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Did you ever wonder why someone would spend millions on an election, only to win a job paying MUCH LESS than the cost of the election? Either they would have to be an egomaniac and really enjoy that title, or there must be a hell of a lot of money to be made "under the table" as an elected official.


Stop voting Republican/Tea Party, and that attitude will greatly diminish. Add to that a few Democrats, and we might see a better elected folks in our goverment. But again, I suspect, based on your rant (and other rants), that you'll mindlessly vote Republican/Tea Party, and keep bitching about the problem. Kind of like a smoker bitching about getting lung cancer, while they lighting up another cigarette in front of you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Oh, they are concerned citizens who only want to "serve." Yeah, right. Ever notice Presidents are usually fairly well off when running and after out of office, their assets are greatly increased? Wonder why.


Actually there are concerned citizens that want to serve in public office, and do good things for the American people (and NOT a tiny sub-group). But I believe I could explain this material indepth and you would STILL not understand it all. So, until you run as a Representative or Senator, claiming you understand the temptation of corruption and dishonesty is rather laughable. You'll no doubt disagree with me on this next part. President Obama seemed to wish to change 'the status quo' in Washington when he first got to the White House. And soon realized that Republicans and Tea Party members have just as much to gain as Democrats by not having the enviroment change. Even though he tried a number of things. Without support from ordinary citizens, his efforts largely died off. Why should he try, when people like you rail him every nanosecond of the day over stupid B.S. stuff?

You want better goverment? Work At It! Dont want better goverment? Keep doing what your doing!

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RE: outraged RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 12:43:48 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		One thing about the stat, $21 trillion is not all money that could have been in the US only, that is money that could have been in many countries, the UK, Canada, Europe, Australia, etc etc.. I believe it includes people like Bono that has moved from the UK to avoid tax on his earnings, or Paul McCartney or various other high earners from around the world.. not that what they did is "hidden" or illegal..

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RE: outraged RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 2:23:50 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Correct. I noted above that some of it belongs to a Russian president

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

One thing about the stat, $21 trillion is not all money that could have been in the US only, that is money that could have been in many countries, the UK, Canada, Europe, Australia, etc etc.. I believe it includes people like Bono that has moved from the UK to avoid tax on his earnings, or Paul McCartney or various other high earners from around the world.. not that what they did is "hidden" or illegal..



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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 2:53:43 PM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between the left and right is that the right are ruled by people with the offshore accounts that are doing a bang up job of selling their minions a bunch of smoke and mirrors about job creation and leftist take everyone's money bull. All while cackling behind their hands that the poor suckers are paying the income taxes they should be paying, but are able to get away not having to do so.

The far left just wants equal taxation for all, equal oportunity for all, fix things before they are broke instead of running around like chicken little after they are broken, screaming about the cost of the fix.



I am not a bit surprised that this is turning into another left vs right bullshit fest although I have to admit i thought it would be a different poster who started it.

I didn't see anything that claimed the money was only held by repubs or even that it was only in the US. But I suppose to some poeple who seem to think there are no left leaning homophobic religous folks out there, the idea that only repubs are rich isn't a far stretch.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: outraged RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 4:23:05 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Why is it the people who don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, and don't pay ANY federal tax, are usually the ones who are the most vocal in worrying about how the rich shelter money the rich have EARNED? Maybe worry that their gravy train might end?


Where the hell is my gravy train???



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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 4:40:16 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~

quote:

estimating the extent of offshore holdings at $21 trillion - that's approx equal to the GNPs of the USA and Japan together.


Not quite correct. $20T would be more accurate. Three of us have put our money into matresses and are hunkered down in our secret bunker in them thar far hills with our survival vitals and an arsenal of high powered semi automatic assault weapons with 100 round magazines (in case we have to hunt down a deer for dinner, yanno)

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 7:41:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


This assumes that a citizens' money belongs to the governments of the world, that we are all slaves to the ruling class.

quote:

The tax evaded on these massive sums would radically alter the budget positions of cash strapped Govts throughout the world




And yet you are one of those railing against the '50%' who pay no taxes because of the amount of money they dont make... arent you?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 8:19:39 PM   
Sanity


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No. If I have mentioned that the majority pay no taxes I wasnt "railing" against the 50%, I was answering the class envy / class warfare leftists who push nonsense lies such as "The Bush tax cuts were for the rich" and "the rich dont pay their fair share".

Now let me quiz you:

Why do you construct these stupid, worthless, lazy strawman arguments, and lie, and do your best to try to make so many of these threads about me. Why cant you, or most other leftists here for that matter, simply address the points I raise directly, or why dont you simply discuss the topic?

Do you not have what it takes to debate my writings honestly?

Am I really so much better than you, that you feel you must stoop to this level in order to try to obfuscate the points that I raise?

And finally, do you believe that we are slaves, or that citizens should serve as slaves to the ruling class? Does or should every dime we have belong to government? Is everything you own theirs? Are our earnings ours, or theirs.

Are we a free people? Or are we not a free people.








< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/25/2012 8:22:15 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 10:18:10 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
No. If I have mentioned that the majority pay no taxes I wasnt "railing" against the 50%, I was answering the class envy / class warfare leftists who push nonsense lies such as "The Bush tax cuts were for the rich" and "the rich dont pay their fair share".


Actuall the 'Bush Era Tax Cuts' did benefit (and contuine to do so) for the rich. This has been proven mathematically, economically, and financially. The evidence is easy to find at most local libraries. The percentage before those tax cuts for the rich, were 35% of total gross income. And that's before the loopholes too! Which is why Mr. Romeny's tax return shows he paid 13.9%, and Mr. Buffet paid about 18.7%; while most Americans ended up paying a higher percentage of thier gross earnings. A 'Scale of Economies' on a level most people simply do not possess the right and correct information to fully understand the effects this had on the economy up to this point. If those tax cuts were revoked for the 2% of gross earners in the nation, would give the nation about $950-1,130 Billion in revenue. That US Deficit we have would practically be eliminated. If however, we cut down on spending, and applied the money against the US Debt, would lower it by about 2/3rds after 10 years. These kind of numbers are easily found, Sanity.

In fact, during the Reagan Administration, the amount of money the 2% were paying on their gross income was nearly double the rate before the Bush Tax Cuts were created (meaning the taxes they paid at the end of the Clinton Admin was half that of the Reagan Admin). And during that time, most Americans enjoyed upward financial mobiliy. The 'American Dream' was real and reasonably attainable by most Americans. Saving for college, starting a business, buying a house, or affording an addition was fairly common back than. Today, much of that is a 'pipe dream' for most Americans. We allowed the rich to get far richer, while the middle class is slowly being drained into the poor class. Not to mention holding a bad deficit and a high debt.

Maybe what we should do (just saying out loud), is tax these 2%'ers at a +44% higher rate than now (so Mr. Romney would actually pay 53% in taxes, instead of 13%) as an incentive for those 'job creators' to get off their lazy asses and create some actually useful jobs for Americans.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/25/2012 10:21:20 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		fuck taxes in the modern world we use invoices for services rendered.

outside of roads and sewers everything should be computerized and invoiced according to use.

income tax should be x^2

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 5:51:17 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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No, joe. Assuming youre not just pulling those figures out of some morass, which you probably are, that would be revenue TAKEN from the nation.

Just because the government overspends doesnt mean that it should print so much money that it devalues EVERYONES earnings, rich and poor alike, and borrow to the point that we struggle to make the payments on the interest alone, and steal from those of us who leftists feel are too successful... Punish success.

The government is far too large and wasteful, especially when you look at the layers of federal and state and local government combined. Even if it took all of the wealth this nations citizens own it would still not quench the governments thirst for excessive spending. Let it trim back to spending levels that the people can easily support. Let it cease expanding the welfare dependent slave class so that private money can create real jobs. Jobs which could and would restore pride and honor if the government would just get out of the way.

quote:

...would give the nation about $950-1,130 Billion in revenue.


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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 7:25:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Good, begin by ending corporate entitlements.
Then lets hack the shit out of red state federal entitlements.

Once we have the biggest drains on our economy out of the way, we can look at efficient operations for America.

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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 7:37:56 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

governments thirst for excessive spending.


Take it to Reagan, who started the unfunded spending, and Bush II, who brought it back.

You want tax cuts? Fund them. You want to blow even more money on the already bloated military? Fund it.

Because money isn't magic.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 7:49:45 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
You dont "fund" tax cuts, thats like saying a burglar needs to fund money he changes his mind about stealing. Again, we see someone from the left approaching a citizens private belongings as if all of our private holdings belong to the government, as if we citizens are a slave class to be casually exploited by the ruling class.

As far as the military goes, that is the one thing that the Constitution authorizes Congress to fund, and without it there could be no nation and therefore citizens to tax. With that said I would like to see Europe fund more of our joint defense, as we carry a disproportionate share of the burden.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

governments thirst for excessive spending.


Take it to Reagan, who started the unfunded spending, and Bush II, who brought it back.

You want tax cuts? Fund them. You want to blow even more money on the already bloated military? Fund it.

Because money isn't magic.




< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/26/2012 8:05:46 AM >

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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 8:02:39 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		LOL, you make this absurd constitutional argument, and then in the very next sentence by your same logic, a undeniably unconstitutional one.  How many sides of your mouth you got?

You dont "fund" tax cuts, thats like saying a burglar needs to fund money he changes his mind about stealing.

You fund tax cuts by cutting spending, something you obviously as a right winger have no knowledge of.

You see, tax is revenue, like your paycheck.  You want to quit the teabaggers and neo-cons toxic spend and borrow you need to raise enough revenue to cover that what needs to be spent to survive and flourish in a world where among others, the chinese are kicking the fuck out of your ass and you continue the jingles and policies that will devolve us to a third world country.



Again, we see someone from the left approaching a citizens private belongings as if all of our private holdings belong to the government,
That is absurd, and it is very typical lies promulgated by the right.


as if we citizens are a slave class to be casually exploited by the ruling class.
You sure are all for corporate slavery.  You are creating the slave class all over again.  Your craven, servile, corporate capitulation is feeding a military-industrial complex that is the ruination of this country.



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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 8:33:44 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Why cant you, or most other leftists here for that matter, simply address the points I raise directly, or why dont you simply discuss the topic?



Greetings comrade..

Address the points directly? Okay.

So we take this..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And finally, do you believe that we are slaves, or that citizens should serve as slaves to the ruling class? Does or should every dime we have belong to government? Is everything you own theirs? Are our earnings ours, or theirs.


....and this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Are we a free people? Or are we not a free people.



..oh and also this....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Just because the government overspends doesnt mean that it should print so much money that it devalues EVERYONES earnings, rich and poor alike, and borrow to the point that we struggle to make the payments on the interest alone, and steal from those of us who leftists feel are too successful... Punish success.



..and also this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The government is far too large and wasteful, especially when you look at the layers of federal and state and local government combined. Even if it took all of the wealth this nations citizens own it would still not quench the governments thirst for excessive spending. Let it trim back to spending levels that the people can easily support. Let it cease expanding the welfare dependent slave class so that private money can create real jobs. Jobs which could and would restore pride and honor if the government would just get out of the way.



So basically what you're saying is that because the government spends too much money, and that it wants everyone's money, that this justifies these rich people hiding away their money in offshore accounts because they're doing it in the name of freedom?

It's the government's fault all this money is hidden away offshore is it?

Classic. This is about as classic as 'Zed's dead baby.' in Tarantino's Pulp Fiction.

It's like that other right wing classic 'if we weren't taxed so much we would have money to create jobs'. Yeah right. We've been hearing that line for the past thirty or so years, ever since Reagan and Thatcher and you right wingers decided that you wouldn't bother to get out of bed if it wasn't profitable enough for you and that you didn't have to pay someone decent wages any more.

But you know, three decades is some time - quite enough time with right wing politicians being in power. So, where are the jobs? What happened to them? Where are the actions and achievements to back up these arguments?

Yes you are right about governments wanting to take you for every penny you've got, especially right wing governments. All they've ever done is take money from people, cut spending and services, and hand over money to their rich friends. But the thing is the more you give these right wing governments the more they want, which is why after thirty years of the 'trickledown theory' they're trying to foist austerity on us.

Thing is also, that this thread is about $21 trillion hidden away in offshore accounts. It's not about what the government should be doing, what it's spending, and whatnot.

It's about rich people not paying taxes. The morality here is simple, if you make use of something - whether it be roads, sewage, education, transport, whatever, you pay for it, and you pay taxes to contribute.

Back where I come from we have words for people who don't pay taxes or who don't want to pay taxes.

We call them parasites, freeloaders, spongers, scroungers.

And you know what the sad part about all this is?

That if invested not even a fraction of a per cent of that $21 trillion is enough to solve world poverty and give everyone an occupation.

What's more, if that happened, those handing over the money would see a return on their investment within months.

But it's never going to happen because there's too many rich people who can only think in terms of 'me me me me'.


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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 8:50:55 AM   
Moonhead


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RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 8:57:23 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You dont "fund" tax cuts, thats like saying a burglar needs to fund money he changes his mind about stealing. Again, we see someone from the left approaching a citizens private belongings as if all of our private holdings belong to the government, as if we citizens are a slave class to be casually exploited by the ruling class.

As far as the military goes, that is the one thing that the Constitution authorizes Congress to fund, and without it there could be no nation and therefore citizens to tax. With that said I would like to see Europe fund more of our joint defense, as we carry a disproportionate share of the burden.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

governments thirst for excessive spending.


Take it to Reagan, who started the unfunded spending, and Bush II, who brought it back.

You want tax cuts? Fund them. You want to blow even more money on the already bloated military? Fund it.

Because money isn't magic.




Yet before they were cut, those taxes were funding something. Same with the military--argue for it, but fund it.

Stuff doesn't pay for itself. You want things but you don't have funding.

Party of Magic Money. Perhaps your Fairy Godmother will bring it.

"We need more military" and "Return the money to the people" doesn't pay for stuff--it defunds it, and worsens the structural deficit.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/26/2012 8:58:53 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 8:59:07 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		And the really pathetic thing is that people who don't have a clue how to pay for this stuff have the brass neck to call themselves "fiscal conservatives". WTF?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: $21 trillion hidden in offshore accounts - 7/26/2012 9:04:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		They've spent four years screaming about deficits---and their front line plan is to increase it.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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