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Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 3:20:14 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		Start with this talk by Barry Shwartz. (Warning, 20 minutes long)

TED Talk, Paradox of Choice

After watching this and reflecting on past relationships I think that perhaps I find it frustrating when I'm out with someone who can't make a choice. So much time is wasted by looking at each and every option and weighing the possible consequences that time spent making the decision is lost as opportunity cost. I am not paralyzed by decision so I can make them.

In retrospect I have noticed that some of the subs I have been with are hampered by too many options.

Obviously I don't intend to use this broad brush to paint all of D/s but I am wondering how widely it is applicable.

I don't want to get into a discussion of neurotransmitters, but it has been shown that making decisions takes a toll on the brain. I also know that it could work both ways: "Slave get in the kitchen and make mealoaf for dinner" (Dom makes the decision) vs. "Slave get in the kitchen and make dinner' (slave has the obligation and has to make the decision.)

I've rambled on long enough - have at it.
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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 3:35:07 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Could we get an executive summary, maybe?

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 3:55:09 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Status: offline 		A very short explanation: One of the most basic assumptions of Western society is that freedom is important and every should have choices since this enhances satisfaction. This is good and healthy.

Research, however, has shown that too many choices can actually be detrimental to satisfaction. He uses several examples but I'll use my own:

Have you ever gone into a restaurant and they have a short one page menu? You can decide fairly quickly what to order. It may not be exactly what you want at the time but you'll be satisfied. On the other hand if you go into a restaurant with a 40 page menu there are two many things that you want. Your satisfaction with your meal actually decreases because you worry about the opportunity cost. If your choices are French, Italian and blue-cheese dressing you can decide very quickly (the correct answer is blue cheese.) However if you have fifty choices including cilantro vinagrette, rasberry balsamic vinagrette, citrus vinagrette and a roqueforte vinagrette (BTW the correct answer is still the one with cheese in it) people can become paralyzed by the sheer volume of options. You can spend an extra 10 minutes just on the salad dressing.

In the industrialized world you are forced to make more and more decisions that leave you less and less satisfied. (The video explains it much better than I do, you are getting just one very short blurb without all the evidence.) Something not covered in the video: constantly making these choices is very taxing on your brain and you can tire very easily simply by having to choose which of 500 channels of crap to watch as opposed to only having 3 channels to choose from.

I am wondering how many submissives enjoy the freedom from choice as well as the aspect of service. None of the posts I've read here recently have touched on that.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 4:02:48 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Oh, okay.

I'm not intimidated by large arrays. Must be a dom thing.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 4:16:53 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I find that I have my favorite fall-backs, whether it's selections on a huge restaurant menu or channels on a gazillion channel line-up on TV. I find a one page menu far more irritating than a very large one.

NBMG

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 4:30:25 PM   
kitkat105


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From: Eating dutch crunch in the Silicon Valley
Status: offline 		I've always craved simplicity in my life. I think when my life is the most simple is when I'm most happy. I enjoy routine (that's not to say I don't enjoy new things though). I definitely don't like making decisions.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 4:49:25 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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Status: offline 		This issue applies to society in general.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 5:06:14 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Sure. I've spent half an hour in the ice cream aisle trying to pick the perfect choice that everyone will love. Usually everyone but me, I'm the only person who likes banana split ice cream.

And the more tired I am, the more stressed, the harder it is to make a decision.

But if we're talking about dinner, I find everyone finds that a tough decision. I've probably cooked 9000 dinners in my life. Anything I possibly wanted to eat and then some. So there comes a point where making that decision one more time will be the straw that broke the camel's back. Same with restaurants, there are ten in this town. Over 20 years I've been to all of them more times than I can imagine.

These days it's does he want a drink or not because that's a way to lower the number to choose from. Of the five that's left whether or not you want soup can help throw a couple of more out. The two Irish places only have loaded potato soup which we don't eat. Which one has a decent salad, and so on. It isn't choosing what we want as much as eliminating what we don't want.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 5:07:54 PM   
Dresproperty


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Status: offline 		I know my Masters expectations so Im able to make choices quickly for myself most of the time. He does not micromanage me however he knows that when Im in doubt about something I will always talk to him beforehand.

I have a couple longtime gal pals who are non-bdsm & who take forever and a day just deciding what salad dressing they want at a restaurant~ so I dont thing indecisiveness is a submissive/slave trait.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 5:16:31 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Status: offline 		The video is geared that way certainly. However submissives routinely give up their choices to a dominant which relieves some of the effect - or does it? I'm asking specifically about D/s relationships.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 5:22:52 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		I do prefer to delegate some decisionmaking...so anyone who wants me to be their auxiliary brain will be disappointed.



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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 5:23:57 PM   
poise


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel
I am wondering how many submissives enjoy the freedom from choice as well as the aspect of service.

I think the only time I ever experience any sense of being overwhelmed with the abundance of choices
is when I'm in the medicine aisle of my local grocery store, usually looking for the best remedy to alleviate
whatever is ailing him. When did the medicine aisle get so ginormous?!

In most other scenarios, while I may not always get to choose, I do enjoy the ability to do so when I can.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 6:24:48 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I do prefer to delegate some decisionmaking...so anyone who wants me to be their auxiliary brain will be disappointed.




We are sisters I believe.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 7:09:42 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		We knew that, LaT!

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 7:23:34 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I abhore making choices and that's why I'm so glad that Master makes them. Sometimes he'll ask me what I want and if I have an idea I will let him know but if I say "anywhere" or "whatever", then he makes the choice. It's one of the reasons why I love being with him. It's so very easy and I don't have to worry about my mind going all crazy inside with having to decide. If I have to decide I get frustrated and fluttered. I either can't think of anything or I think of too many things and I end up just hesitating and procrastinating and going back to him to help me decide which again makes me upset because I hate bothering him.

And I hate when we go out somewhere and the menu has like 3 pages of choices or we go out for ice cream and there's 20 different flavors. It's extremely hard for me to decide. We went to a tea cafe the other day and there were so many different teas that I couldn't decide. When Master went to order, at the last moment I changed my mind on which one I wanted lol. It's just hard for me! I like simple, easy things.

The less stress on me, the less stress on him and on us.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/26/2012 7:26:27 PM >

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 7:52:39 PM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		I absolutely do not want a freedom from choice. I know lots of folks like that aspect of service but I do not. I love all the choices life brings my way from salad dressing to movies to watch to books to read to music to enjoy, etc, etc. Master allows me to make most of my own choices and enjoys me making lots of the choices about small things for Him as well. I can't imagine what a dull, bland life it would be if I had every choice, whether small or large, made for me. I do get the gist of the idea, though, that it wears one out to have too many choices. Master and I joke about this at the market or the pharmacy when all we want is one simple item like sour cream or pain reliever and there's 97 choices

luci

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 7:55:09 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I do prefer to delegate some decisionmaking...so anyone who wants me to be their auxiliary brain will be disappointed.



Well said. Master would definitely agree.........luci

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 7:57:36 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I was watching something on tv a couple years ago where a musician was talking about how there are way too many choices in the music world these days and it has come to devalue music. With too many choices people become sorta laxadaisacal about the music, it all starts to sound the same, is the same and music is no longer special. You no longer have those absolutely great songs that become classics. How many modern songs have really become anthems or that song that sticks in your mind for the rest of your life, that song where you can hear a couple of beats and everyone immediately knows that song? Not many if any at all.

The more choices in music the less iconic it becomes.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 8:04:25 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Are we talking about the freedom in
chains type of thing? That paradox is
explored a lot in the gor series.

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RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. - 7/26/2012 8:10:56 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Status: offline 		It's all explained in the video.

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