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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 8:27:34 PM   
Sanity


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Its up to you to show where theyve written that military compensation is included because all youve shown it that Romneys plan includes bringing federal employee compensation in line with civilian compensation. And since there is no equivalent to the military in the private sector, what youve shown does not apply. In other words, the Obama campaign is lying again.

Soldiers and sailors and airmen etc are not employees taz, theyre essentially government property. And again, there are no soldiers in the private sector to speak of so there is no bringing military compensation in line with the private sector.

Get it yet? There is no equivalent to the military in the private sector, so there is no bringing military compensation in line with the private sector as per Obamas underhanded claim re Romneys plan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Show me where they have said that. I have shown you were they said that they werent cutting pay, but they were cutting compensation.



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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 8:36:54 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Romney aides and supporters said they are not proposing a 30% to 40% pay cut, and federal compensation involved more than take-home pay, including such benefits as health coverage, retirement, paid leave and student loan repayments. According to the Romney plan, aligning federal compensation with the private sector will save $47 billion.


Military ARE federal employees.

I proved my point.

Back yours up.. wait... you cant.

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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 8:44:24 PM   
Sanity


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Soldiers etc arent the same as federal employes, no. You sign your life away... And there is no private sector military equivalent to align their pay with, taz.

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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 8:55:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		They are not talking about their PAY Sanity.

You can align their BENEFITS (COMPENSATION) with the rest of the private sector.

Come on, think.

http://prhome.defense.gov/rfm/mpp/qrmc/Vol2/v2c2.pdf

This Economist did it in 2001.



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:00:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Military Pay Higher Than Ever Compared to Civilian Wages

As private sector salaries flattened over the last decade, military pay climbed steadily, enough so that by 2009 pay and allowances for enlisted members exceeded the pay of 90 percent of private sector workers of similar age and education level.

That's one of the more significant findings of the 11th Quadrennial Review of Military Compensation report released last week, given its potential to impact compensation decisions by the Department of Defense and Congress as they struggle to control military personnel costs.

The military pay advantage, which had been a worrisome gap in 1999, is larger now than it has ever been, said QRMC director Thomas Bush.

"I believe it is, and there is a chart in our report that illustrates that. [It] shows where we are, which is probably the highest point that we have been" compared with civilian pay, Bush said.

.......

To make its pay comparisons, the QRMC used Regular Military Compensation, which combines basic pay with Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) and Basic Allowance for Subsistence (BAS) plus the federal tax advantage on the tax-free allowances.



http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,246954,00.html

So, please, while you may not be smart enough to realize it CAN be compared, those of us who have some working knowledge of military pay as a whole know better.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:08:54 PM   
Sanity


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Thanks for the link taz, I laughed my ass off at you while reading it because (assuming your premise) according to that information, Romney will RAISE military pay to soldiers etc, comparably to private sector workers!!!

So your headline is a lie, assuming military compensation is included (which it isnt)

But again there is no comparison, what the Romney plan obviously means is that BUREAUCRATS who are in IT (for example) should have their federal compensation LOWERED to bring it in line wot the private sector

You, and by extension the Obama campaign (who the Obama campaign people are proven liars) have yet to establish that Romneys plan includes the military

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They are not talking about their PAY Sanity.

You can align their BENEFITS (COMPENSATION) with the rest of the private sector.

Come on, think.

http://prhome.defense.gov/rfm/mpp/qrmc/Vol2/v2c2.pdf

This Economist did it in 2001.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/29/2012 9:10:06 PM >

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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:10:53 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Military Pay Higher Than Ever Compared to Civilian Wages

As private sector salaries flattened over the last decade, military pay climbed steadily, enough so that by 2009 pay and allowances for enlisted members exceeded the pay of 90 percent of private sector workers of similar age and education level.

That's one of the more significant findings of the 11th Quadrennial Review of Military Compensation report released last week, given its potential to impact compensation decisions by the Department of Defense and Congress as they struggle to control military personnel costs.

The military pay advantage, which had been a worrisome gap in 1999, is larger now than it has ever been, said QRMC director Thomas Bush.

"I believe it is, and there is a chart in our report that illustrates that. [It] shows where we are, which is probably the highest point that we have been" compared with civilian pay, Bush said.

.......

To make its pay comparisons, the QRMC used Regular Military Compensation, which combines basic pay with Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) and Basic Allowance for Subsistence (BAS) plus the federal tax advantage on the tax-free allowances.



http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,246954,00.html

So, please, while you may not be smart enough to realize it CAN be compared, those of us who have some working knowledge of military pay as a whole know better.



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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:11:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Yep.. Civilian... Private sector.. honestly... you are being deliberately argumentative. Private wages also include benefits when comparing to each other....

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:13:25 PM   
Sanity


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To clarify - those charts and graphs you linked to in that PDF show that military pay is half of civilian pay, on the lower end, to 80% or so on the higher end

Which, being the expert on it you claim to be its surprising that escaped you

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:17:55 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I have no issue with the military being paid more than the private sector. Thats not what this is about. This is about them being cut from where they are now.. and that I am definitely against.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:25:46 PM   
Sanity


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You should also be against the Obama campaign putting out lies

What ever happened to hope and change, when did that become hate and smear, and lies you can shake your head at

Again, if Romney were really to align military compensation with the private sector ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SOURCES that would mean huge raises all around for our men and women in uniform

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have no issue with the military being paid more than the private sector. Thats not what this is about. This is about them being cut from where they are now.. and that I am definitely against.



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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:32:09 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		You are talking as if Romney intends to give a raise to all the military personnel. How do you coincide that with his plans for a savings of 47 billion? There are no raises in the works. And, at 90% above the private sector, that is the quickest and fastest way to realize his bold claims.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:40:49 PM   
Sanity


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No, taz - Ive maintained all along that the Obama campaign was lying about the Romney plan including military compensation. Ive pointed out tirelessly again and again through this thread that the Romney plan is for the bureaucrats, not the soldiers.

To recap - Its Obamas campaign that lied to you, telling you that the Romney would give the military a huge pay cut (though youve proven that bringing military compensation in line with the civilian sector would equal a huge pay RAISE for the military).


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You are talking as if Romney intends to give a raise to all the military personnel. How do you coincide that with his plans for a savings of 47 billion? There are no raises in the works. And, at 90% above the private sector, that is the quickest and fastest way to realize his bold claims.



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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:42:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		You claimed its because the military pay cannot be compared to the private sector.. something I have proven you wrong about.

Case closed.

You are back peddling again.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:48:03 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		FR

Earlier this year, U.S. News and World Report had a story on federal vs. nongovernmental compensation. Drawing on data from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, they found that federal workers' compensation is higher, but that this is largely a matter of benefits rather than salary: "It should be noted that most of the difference between public and private employees is due to the benefits government workers receive, such as healthcare and pensions. If those benefits are removed from the equation, the average federal employee earns only 2 percent more than the average non-government worker."

A few thoughts come to mind:

-- It's interesting that reactions seem to be not "Well, how do we get better benefits for private-sector workers?" but "Damn, those feds must be overpaid!" I'm reminded of the Russian folk tale in which a peasant laments that his neighbor has a cow while he doesn't. His fairy godmother appears and offers to give him one. "No," the man replies, "I want you to kill his cow."

-- The article doesn't say how much of federal workers' ability to negotiate better benefits stems from being unionized. It is interesting that we've recently seen backlashes against public-sector unions. There too, the mindset seems to be "How do we bring down those in the public sector?" rather than "How do we raise up those in the private sector?"

-- The article did not say whether its private-sector calculations include bonuses, which can be a big chunk of one's compensation and are, I think, relatively rare for federal workers.

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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:51:46 PM   
Sanity


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No, taz...

What I wrote is that there is no civilian military therefore there is no bringing their pay (compensation) in line...

In other words, bringing federal pay in line with the private sector means job for job, the pay would be closer to the same - as in IT directors, or payroll managers, or other fields that have counterparts public and private

As in, there are no artillerymen or infantrymen at IBM. The military isnt the same, and Ive written that as well, tried to very patiently explain it to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You claimed its because the military pay cannot be compared to the private sector.. something I have proven you wrong about.

Case closed.

You are back peddling again.







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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:56:59 PM   
Sanity


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You understand that the United States is beyond broke, right? And that we are experiencing a severe deficit crisis that may well ruin us? And that we are in a severe recession? A recession that the left would be referring to as a great depression, were a Republican in the White House?

Obama has said you dont raise taxes in a recession, that will just drive us deeper into recession. You get that too, right?

You understand that government sucks money out of the economy, that its a net leech? a drain on the private sector, which is the only thing that keeps government going?

What is so hard about this. Why should bureaucrats, public servants, be paid like royalty...

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Earlier this year, U.S. News and World Report had a story on federal vs. nongovernmental compensation. Drawing on data from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, they found that federal workers' compensation is higher, but that this is largely a matter of benefits rather than salary: "It should be noted that most of the difference between public and private employees is due to the benefits government workers receive, such as healthcare and pensions. If those benefits are removed from the equation, the average federal employee earns only 2 percent more than the average non-government worker."

A few thoughts come to mind:

-- It's interesting that reactions seem to be not "Well, how do we get better benefits for private-sector workers?" but "Damn, those feds must be overpaid!" I'm reminded of the Russian folk tale in which a peasant laments that his neighbor has a cow while he doesn't. His fairy godmother appears and offers to give him one. "No," the man replies, "I want you to kill his cow."

-- The article doesn't say how much of federal workers' ability to negotiate better benefits stems from being unionized. It is interesting that we've recently seen backlashes against public-sector unions. There too, the mindset seems to be "How do we bring down those in the public sector?" rather than "How do we raise up those in the private sector?"

-- The article did not say whether its private-sector calculations include bonuses, which can be a big chunk of one's compensation and are, I think, relatively rare for federal workers.




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RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 9:57:21 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

As in, there are no artillerymen or infantrymen at IBM.


True. But might there be at Academi (nee Blackwater) and similar firms?

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 10:01:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

What I wrote is that there is no civilian military therefore there is no bringing their pay (compensation) in line...


In line with the private sector.. which is what those two links should have shown you they do.. they compare military pay, which include benefits, with civilian (private) pay.

quote:

In other words, bringing federal pay in line with the private sector means job for job, the pay would be closer to the same - as in IT directors, or payroll managers, or other fields that have counterparts public and private


Nurses with military nurses... Doctors with military doctors... MPs with cops....IT techs with military IT techs... Office secretaries with military office secretaries... yes... they can be compared.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Military cuts - 7/29/2012 10:11:48 PM   
Sanity


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Youre picking at nits because thats not job for job taz, its only for age group. Which btw that study is rather meaningless for this purpose. I am no expert but its quite basic, what Romney intends to do is bring federal compensation closer in line with comparable private sector pay because federal employee pay is far higher than in the private sector (like job for like job).

Military positions are still somewhat based on draft era compensation, adjusted up only enough to fill quotas in an all volunteer military with the real drawing card being the chance to get some training in a career and possibly do some traveling and have access to certain other benefits. Room and board, cheap alcohol... you know. Sign on the dotted line, become government property for four long years, have an adventure

But no, their pay grade is far lower, job for job. And their skill level isnt always all that great either, ever had a chance to enjoy that good Army cooking

YUM YUM







< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/29/2012 10:16:12 PM >

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