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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 10:19:44 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

Someone deemed a suicide risk can be
kept in the hospital for observation and
if a schizophrenic acted out in a disturbing
way they might be hospitalized and brought
back to a lucid state with medication.

People deemed a danger to anyone can be held for 72 hours for evaluation. In CA that determination can be made by a police office, EMT, Doctor or psychiatric counselor. It's referred to here as a 5150 hold.

If you have been on a 5150 hold or have been admitted to psychiatric facility, you are no longer eligible to own a gun.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 10:36:21 AM

cloudboy

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That is good information. I never knew it, so thanks for stating it so clearly.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 1:37:11 PM

Winterapple

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Do other states have this law?
It's very sensible if it's enforced.
Do all states require background checks?

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 3:47:28 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I've said all along that someone who is determined to do harm will find a way. I sincerely doubt that if guns were outlawed the Aurora shooter would have said, "Guess I can't plan that mass destruction since guns are illegal...."x

More likely, on average, that he'd never have planned that mass destruction in the first place if guns hadn't been available. Aims changes along with the means of achieving them, as I've said before.

As an example: I have a store shed with breezeblock walls. At tool shop, once, I saw an angle grinder. I hadn't heard of these before. These can cut through concrete and brick. It was then, and only then, that I developed the desire to turn my store shed into a study, with a window, the hole for which would be made by an angle grinder. The existence, possibilities and *availability* of the tool engendered the desire, *not* vice versa.

I've heard about guns, and what they can do. But if I were to be walking past a gun shop on the way to work, every day (which is unimaginable in the UK) . . . yep, I think I might start fantasising a bit about such a tool and what I could do with it. I hate certain people, as little or as much as the next man. I almost certainly wouldn't pursue the fantasy, on account of I'm quite balanced. But only 'almost certainly', not 'definitely'.

OG: the bottom line here is that you're not stating some obvious maxim, there. You're stating an opinion. It's coming across as an assumption that seems so comfortably obvious to you that you don't think it even needs thinking about, because you assume that it'll be just as comfortably obvious to anyone else. That is wrong, as far as I can see. Just saying.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 4:15:12 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

Do other states have this law?
It's very sensible if it's enforced.
Do all states require background checks?

It varies from state to state.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 4:20:01 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
As an example: I have a store shed with breezeblock walls. At tool shop, once, I saw an angle grinder. I hadn't heard of these before. These can cut through concrete and brick. It was then, and only then, that I developed the desire to turn my store shed into a study, with a window, the hole for which would be made by an angle grinder. The existence, possibilities and *availability* of the tool engendered the desire, *not* vice versa.

Had you not heard of lintels either?

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 4:25:20 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

OG: the bottom line here is that you're not stating some obvious maxim, there. You're stating an opinion. It's coming across as an assumption that seems so comfortably obvious to you that you don't think it even needs thinking about, because you assume that it'll be just as comfortably obvious to anyone else. That is wrong, as far as I can see. Just saying.

Not really since there are numerous instances of mass murders happening in areas that don't allow guns or in methods that didn't use guns. Some guy in china just killed 9 people and injured 10 others using a knife. Some guy drove his Buick through a Farmer's Market killing 10 and injuring 63. A guy in Japan killed 8 children and wounded 13 others plus two teachers with a knife. A guy in a Toronto mall used a gun killing one and injuring 7.

If someone is truly determined to do harm, they will find a way to do harm.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 4:59:23 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
If someone is truly determined to do harm, they will find a way to do harm.

True. But it depends on what fits the feeling most, doesn't it? Me, if I feel very aggressive, I want to punch something rather than shoot something. Violence = fists, to me. Depends upon the channel that society has offered for one's feelings of violence, I'd say.

I've said elsewhere that English people are known on the continent here for being violent. But it turns into kicks and punches, it doesn't turn into shootings. Fists are available; guns are not. You know this from birth onwards - you don't even think about guns and you don't associate your violent feelings with guns.

Do you see? Your 'common sense' view on this is not 'common sense' - not common to all people, or to every society, everywhere. It's peculiar to a given culture - a gun culture. Not a fist, knuckle duster, or knife culture - as here - but a gun culture. Guns kill much more easily than do fists, knuckle dusters or even knives. Likewise, I *could* cut a hole in a wall to take a window with a lump hammer and cold chisel, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as easy, quick and efficient as it would be with an angle grinder.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 6:19:14 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Had you not heard of lintels either?

No. I think I heard about them at the same time as I heard of Americans. I concluded that both were useful, though in somewhat different ways.

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 6:27:15 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

More likely, on average, that he'd never have planned that mass destruction in the first place if guns hadn't been available. Aims changes along with the means of achieving them, as I've said before.

As an example: I have a store shed with breezeblock walls. At tool shop, once, I saw an angle grinder. I hadn't heard of these before. These can cut through concrete and brick. It was then, and only then, that I developed the desire to turn my store shed into a study, with a window, the hole for which would be made by an angle grinder. The existence, possibilities and *availability* of the tool engendered the desire, *not* vice versa.

I've heard about guns, and what they can do. But if I were to be walking past a gun shop on the way to work, every day (which is unimaginable in the UK) . . . yep, I think I might start fantasising a bit about such a tool and what I could do with it. I hate certain people, as little or as much as the next man. I almost certainly wouldn't pursue the fantasy, on account of I'm quite balanced. But only 'almost certainly', not 'definitely'.

OG: the bottom line here is that you're not stating some obvious maxim, there. You're stating an opinion. It's coming across as an assumption that seems so comfortably obvious to you that you don't think it even needs thinking about, because you assume that it'll be just as comfortably obvious to anyone else. That is wrong, as far as I can see. Just saying.

GUNS are here to stay in the USA, and there's no way to put this horse back in the barn. At least GUN nuts haven't gotten behind selling hand grenades, stinger missiles, bazookas, IEDs, and other forms of "self defense" that might somehow, too, be squeezed behind the 2nd Amendment, individual rights, and notions of personal freedom and opposition to government tyranny.

The mental health angle at least promises a solution most Americans can get behind.

There is also a flip side to GUN control, namely that gun violations can often put good people behind bars.

Also, the strict gun laws in Norway run counter to your thesis. The determined killer there found his weapons and executed his plan. (OsideGirl's point.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/3/2012 6:33:30 PM >

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 6:28:16 PM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
If someone is truly determined to do harm, they will find a way to do harm.

In that case, why don't we just start handing out nuclear bombs?

Pam

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 6:34:09 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
No. I think I heard about them at the same time as I heard of Americans. I concluded that both were useful, though in somewhat different ways.

Well they aren't always required, Igloos don't have em.

There was this episode of The Brittas Empire where Brittas could not get through a door because someone was slumped down against it on the other side. So he started to cut through the door with a chainsaw. This kind of reminded me of that for some reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
If someone is truly determined to do harm, they will find a way to do harm.

In that case, why don't we just start handing out nuclear bombs?

Pam

Cost, who is going to pay for that scheme?

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/3/2012 6:36:26 PM >

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/3/2012 6:49:29 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
This is a good point, but GUNS are here to stay in the USA.

Yes, yes, of course they are.

Nothing can ever change, ever. Well, except for everyone getting more obese, of course. That little aspect of Western society is motoring on very nicely indeed.

It's all nature, and common sense, and nothing can ever change, ever.

God bless America. :-)

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RE: Gun Control - Mental Illness - Aurora - 8/8/2012 6:39:32 PM

cloudboy

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NPR today was talking about identifying the marks of an unstable dangerous person, and those commenting said its nearly impossible. Here were some of the points made.

YES, if a UNIV reports that a former student has been acting strangely and possibly dangerous to the police, the police will then add the suspect's name to the 3000 other reported nut-jobs on their watch-list

UNIV personnel and faculty may back away from someone instead of trying to help and get involved -- to avoid liability or making a mistake of judgment -- it will be easier for them to back off and report a strange individual to management.

Over-reporting of people displaying signs of being dangerous will flood the authorities with bad leads and bad information.

Its difficult - to impossible to draw the line from "withdrawn" or "socially isolated" or "abnormal" etc. to imminently violent.

So, at best we have to hope that a disturbed individual reaches out for help and gets it.

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