Executing the Mentally Ill

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Marini -> Executing the Mentally Ill (8/6/2012 9:25:50 PM)
Should the mentally ill be executed for their crimes? The ACLU has an article called, Death Penalty 101. It is concise, and a very SHORT read. ACLU Death Penalty 101 16 states do NOT have the death penalty: Do you see any Southern states, besides W Virginia? Alaska New Jersey Hawaii New Mexico Illinois New York Iowa North Dakota Maine Rhode Island Massachusetts Vermont Michigan W. Virginia Minnesota Wisconsin 34 states still HAVE the death penalty: Alabama Montana Arizona Nebraska Arkansas Nevada California New Hampshire* Colorado North Carolina Connecticut Ohio Delaware Oklahoma Florida Oregon Georgia Pennsylvania Idaho South Carolina Indiana South Dakota* Kansas Tennessee Kentucky Texas Louisiana Utah Maryland Virginia Mississippi Washington Missouri Wyoming Plus: U.S. government, U.S. military I just read this blog in the ACLU, called a tale of 3 states/executing the mentally ill, it's fascinating. ACLU/ A tale of 3 states/executing the mentally ill Why is okay for some states to still execute the mentally ill and other states NOT be able to execute the mentally ill? I would like to hear your thoughts on EXECUTING the mentally ill.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/6/2012 9:39:12 PM)
All things considered, I have always considered that the actions that would put someone on death row were, most likely, a symptom of some form of mental illness. For that particular thought process I would probably be released from the jury of a capital crime. I don't have a difficulty with the thought that a sociopath with an untreatable mental illness could face the death penalty, but that is a whole lot of ifs. The correct medication could render almost anyone harmless to themselves and others without killing them, but which solution is more humane? I do not think that execkution should ever be taken off the table, if for no other reason than as a deterrent.

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/6/2012 9:46:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam All things considered, I have always considered that the actions that would put someone on death row were, most likely, a symptom of some form of mental illness. For that particular thought process I would probably be released from the jury of a capital crime. I don't have a difficulty with the thought that a sociopath with an untreatable mental illness could face the death penalty, but that is a whole lot of ifs. The correct medication could render almost anyone harmless to themselves and others without killing them, but which solution is more humane? I do not think that execkution should ever be taken off the table, if for no other reason than as a deterrent. Great post! I have very similar thoughts regarding capital crimes and the mentally ill. I would think that 80%-90% of most people that commit capital murder, have "some" form of mental illness!

Tumblweed -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/6/2012 10:16:01 PM)
I think that anyone who murders should be put to death no matter their condition. But understand that murder is only the absolutely intentional killing of a human being for gain, glory or in SOME cases revenge. But then those who lack the mental capacity to live in society must be removed, and execution works fine. It is a tough world. Too bad. We MUST do what is right for us, who make the place better, and do what gets rid of those who make the places wronger, or worser, or something like that. Of course we need to get rid of the politicians, but nobody has the balls. "Oh, I have bills, an olady, a headache, a backache". Next revolution comes you better be fucking full of robitussin or something. Weed

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/6/2012 10:19:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tumblweed I think that anyone who murders should be put to death no matter their condition. humm, not sure if I agree with you here. But understand that murder is only the absolutely intentional killing of a human being for gain, glory or in SOME cases revenge. But then those who lack the mental capacity to live in society must be removed, and execution works fine. It is a tough world. Too bad. We MUST do what is right for us, who make the place better, and do what gets rid of those who make the places wronger, or worser, or something like that. Of course we need to get rid of the politicians, but nobody has the balls. "Oh, I have bills, an olady, a headache, a backache". Next revolution comes you better be fucking full of robitussin or something. Weed Welcome aboard Weed. It is always interesting to read what you have to say. The next revolution will also be televised.

Winterapple -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 8:31:02 AM)
I am against anyone being executed. The death penalty is not a deterrant. This has been proven over and over. Many people have some form of mental illness. There are degrees in all things. But acute mental illness such as severe forms of schizophrenia that cause delusional thinking and losing touch with reality prevent the afflicted person from being rational and accountable for their actions. Of course, some people refuse to believe mental illness exists. The shootings in Arizona and Colorado are tragic. But they weren't carried out by master criminal or terrorists but by young men in the grip of madness. Madness that they came by through the genetic lottery. There's no vengeance to be found in killing them and killing them will not deter others like them. These crimes were committed by people who had lost their grip on reality and consequences. It's obviously an emotional subject. I've known or knew the family of murder victims, rape and murder victims. But I cannot support murder by the state. Innocent people have been murdered by the death penalty. These are not acceptable losses for me. Look into why Illinois no longer has the death penalty. Look into who gets the death penalty. Large numbers of poor people, people of color and the mentally challenged. Look into the sort of legal counsel they had access to. It should be abolished in all fifty states and has no place in a civilized society. Americans who support the death penalty should look at lists of countries that have the death penalty and those that have abolished. I know which list I would prefer to be on. It's not the one with China, Russia and Saudi Arabia. I don't see how anyone who identifies as a Christian could support the death penalty. The Catholic church condems it and many of it's active opponents are Protestant ministers. The death penalty is barbaric. It makes murderers out of the hangman. There is no ethical argument in favor of it. And there are many practical arguments against. The chief ones being it is not a deterrent and innocent people who have committed no crime have been railroaded, had incompetent counsel and were murdered by the state.

Musicmystery -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 8:36:56 AM)
While this is short fiction, it does an interesting job of looking empathetically at mental illness from the patient's perspective: Mrs. T's Story Krishna Padmasola I felt bad today.That headache was back. Dr. Wilkins came and spent some time with me. He is very nice with all the inmates,but sometimes I think I can detect some trace of annoyance in him when Martha goes on and on with her list of complaints and does not want to let him go. I felt bad today.That headache was back. Dr. Wilkins came and spent some time with me. He is very nice with all the inmates,but sometimes I think I can detect some trace of annoyance in him when Martha goes on and on with her list of complaints and does not want to let him go. He wanted to talk about my life and my experiences. But I remember so little. Sometimes I am able to recall certain incidents but that is as if a faint breath of mental association has turned the leaves of the book of my past to a forgotten page , offering me a momentary glimpse. Dr.Wilkins said that I should write down whatever I remember, whenever I recall some incident. I said that I would try. Last night I had trouble falling asleep. It did not help that Martha was singing lullabies to her teddy bear.When I woke up, it was 3 a.m., and I was trembling from the nightmare. I wanted to get something to drink from the refrigerator, but then I remembered the small animals I saw in there the last time. The nurse did not believe me. But I don't care.I think she is arrogant and is not responsive to the needs of the inmates. I remember when Roger, me and our three children were living together, and things were not going very well for Roger at work. He used to come home late and was usually frustrated. It was then that the headaches began. In the begining they lasted for short periods of time, but later on they lasted longer . I also heard the voices accusing me that I was not a good wife to Roger. I felt crushed and useless . I could not think of what I could do to help Roger. Poor Roger,with my head going thump,thump like the beats of a drum,the drummer playing on the drumhead alive to pain, like the thunder rolling,rolling and crushing all thoughts and leaving a body like a sapling drained of its life, drooping in the aftermath of a thunderstorm,oh Roger you do not know the anguish I felt when you told me that you wanted a divorce. I did not know why I was doing anything anymore. I was going on a journey with confidence but then when I consulted the map in a moment of doubt, I saw that I was travelling in a maze. Roger left me. I had to sell the house and move to a small apartment. The kids were afraid to talk to me. They stayed with Roger.The headaches, and the voices returned with a vengeance. I heard them say that I was a bad wife and a bad mother. They said that they were punishing me for being bad. Sometimes I would stay in bed the whole day looking at our family photograph. That was the only way I could stand the pain. Sometimes I would look out of the window and see huge dinosaurs walk by. One day I went to groceries and saw some snakes near the checkout counter. I did not want to go out through the checkout counter and as I was leaving by another exit, some policemen came and took back all my groceries. Then they took down my name and address. I did not know what I had done wrong.Finally they let me go. It was after that incident that Dr.Wilkins visited me for the first time. He said that the sergeant had told him about me. He was very kind and understanding. I felt that he was a friend.He gave me some medicine so that there was less pain and I was even able to sleep. What were those lights? Flashing,red and blue, changing the world with each flash, dissolving it into darkness and bringing it forth once more;and what was that sound? incessantly wailing, rising and falling like the waves on a deserted and treacherous shore on a new-moon night;and who was that?was it a policeman who said, "ma'am, would you step out please?" I fainted. The next day, I found myself here. Dr. Wilkins came to see me; I was happy to know that he works here. He said that I was driving on the highway at midnight in my nightgown and when the police found me, I had fainted. Martha is talking in her sleep. I would really like something to drink right now. Next time I should ask the nurse to leave me some drinks on my bedside table. I have written this down and I hope this may be of use to Dr.Wilkins . The clock is striking 4 a.m. and there is the stillness of repose in the dormitory. The world has become silent, and my tumultous thoughts are being attennuated gradually as I approach the half awake half dreamy stage which is the precursor to sleep....

kalikshama -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 8:53:58 AM)
Before I get to the specifics of the death penalty for the mentally ill, I wanted to post this from your link in the OP: The Impact of the Death Penalty The Death Penalty Kills the Innocent: Since 1973, 138 death-row prisoners have been released because they were innocent. In addition, at least ten people have been executed since 1976 even though they were probably innocent [2] Wrongful convictions often result from false confessions, which are frequent among people with mental retardation, mistaken eyewitnesses, jail house snitches, junk science and prosecutorial abuse. The Death Penalty is Racially Biased and Punishes the Poor: Defendants who kill white people are far more likely to get the death penalty than those who kill black people. Most defendants are poor and are forced to depend on incompetent or token representation. Some lawyers have slept or appeared drunk during trials. The Death Penalty is Unfair: The death penalty has never been applied fairly across race, class, and gender lines. Who is sentenced to die often depends on the attitudes of prosecutors, where one is tried, the prejudices of judges and juries, and the abilities and commitment of defense attorneys. The Death Penalty Cost More than Life in Prison: Prosecuting a death penalty case is extremely expensive for a state and drains money that could be used for education and social programs. Capital punishment costs more than sentencing a prisoner to life without parole. The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty cost North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution over the costs of sentencing murderers to life imprisonment. The majority of these costs occur at the trial level. In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70 percent more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases, including the costs of incarceration. [4] The Death Penalty is Not a Deterrent to Crime: Since 1977 over 80 percent of all executions have occurred in the South, the region with the highest murder rate. The Northeast, the region with the lowest murder rate, has accounted for less than 1 percent of the executions. Although the issue of deterrence has been studied extensively, there is no credible evidence that capital punishment deters murder or makes us any safer.

kalikshama -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 9:12:00 AM)
This man is scheduled to be executed today in Texas: US/Texas: Halt Execution of Man with Intellectual Disabilities Texas should not execute a man who has significant intellectual disabilities, Human Rights Watch said today. Marvin Lee Wilson, who was sentenced to death for the abduction and murder of a police drug informant in 1992, is scheduled to be executed on August 7, 2012. In 2002 the United States Supreme Court, in Atkins v. Virginia, prohibited the execution of people with intellectual disabilities, finding that such a practice violates the US Constitution’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment. While most states rely on a clinical evaluation to determine intellectual disability, Texas allows the execution of people who have been clinically diagnosed with an intellectual disability if they meet certain vague social criteria, called the “Briseño factors.” Wilson’s attorneys have exhausted appeals in the Texas court system and have applied to the US Supreme Court to delay the execution and review the case under Atkins. “Marvin Lee Wilson has an intellectual disability and under US law should not be executed,” said Antonio Ginatta, US advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. “Texas is circumventing the Constitution’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment.” The “Briseño factors,” named for the Texas court decision detailing them, consist of seven “evidentiary factors” that Texas finds to be indicative of intellectual disability. These factors include whether the defendant can formulate and carry out plans, display leadership, effectively lie or hide facts to protect the person’s self-interest, and respond appropriately and coherently. Texas appears to allow for execution if just one Briseño factor is met. Tests revealed that Wilson has an IQ of 61, which is well under the legal standard and diagnostic range of 70 considered in Atkins. During the appeals process, Wilson was clinically diagnosed with an intellectual disability by a neuropsychologist. Several family members and friends also signed affidavits attesting to social behavior indicative of intellectual disability. Using the Briseño factors, however, Texas state courts twice ruled that Wilson was still eligible to be executed. The court cited the fact that Wilson is married and has a child and that he lied to police to protect himself as proof that his execution is permissible. “Texas courts seem to think people with intellectual disabilities shouldn’t be able to marry, have kids, or even lie,” Ginatta said. “The basis of the Briseño factors is both unfounded and discriminatory.” The American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities, which has set forth criteria cited by the Supreme Court in determining intellectual disability, stated in a recent amicus curiae (“friend of the court”) brief that the Briseño factors “are based on false stereotypes … that effectively exclude all but the most severely incapacitated.” In addition to the federal constitution, the US has obligations under international human rights law not to execute people with intellectual disabilities. In 2011, during the Universal Periodic Review process for the US at the United Nations Human Rights Council, the US supported a recommendation against executing people with “certain intellectual disabilities.” In its 2006 Concluding Observations to the United States, the UN Human Rights Committee, which monitors compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), stated that it “welcomes the Supreme Court’s decision in Atkins v. Virginia (2002), which held that executions of mentally retarded criminals are cruel and unusual punishments.” By allowing states broad leeway to determine intellectual disability, the US is violating its international obligations by permitting states to execute people with intellectual disabilities, Human Rights Watch said. As part of a federal government, Texas is also obligated to abide by the ICCPR “without limitations or exceptions.” Human Rights Watch opposes capital punishment in all circumstances because the inherent dignity of the person is inconsistent with the death penalty. This form of punishment is unique in its cruelty and finality, and it is inevitably and universally plagued with arbitrariness, prejudice, and error.

Winterapple -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 9:54:40 AM)
Another thing to add to the list is that politicians use it cynically for political gain. Both Bush Jr and Clinton did this when running for president. Bush doled the death penalty out at a high rate even for Texas. When it was pointed out that those largely receiving the death penalty were men of color Bush found tidy way to answer this criticism. He had Karla Fae Tucker a white woman executed. He also refused to stop the executions of several with low IQ's. Clinton refused to spare Ricky Ray Rector. Rector killed a man and then shot and killed a police officer before putting the gun to his head and shooting himself efficetively lobotomizing himself. He was questionably declared competent for trial and given the death penalty. When the guards came to take him to be executed he told them he was saving the piece of pecan pie that had been served in his last supper to eat later. He clearly had no understanding of what was happening to him. It look the executioners almost an hour to. find a vein to administer the lethal injection and Rector was heard by observers moaning and groaning before he perished. Atkins bs Virginia the 2002 Supreme Court decision that declared the killing of the mentally retarded as cruel and unusual punishment under the eighth amendement is a step in the right direction. A person with acute schizophrenia like the Arizona gunman is as mentally impaired as a person with a very low IQ. Some issues are to important to leave up to dickheads on the state level who fear being against the death penalty will make them appear soft on crime. Abolish it in all fifty states.

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 7:43:51 PM)
Great posts tazzy and Winterapple! The disparity and scattered justice that is used when deciding WHO should get the death penalty, just can't be over-looked. "Of the 900 executions performed in the U.S. since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 82 percent were carried out by 10 states (AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MO, OK, SC, TX and VA). Texas and Virginia accounted for more than half of those executions. While Texas has executed well over 300 people since 1976, twelve other death penalty states performed no, or only one, execution in that time. Regardless of how one views capital punishment, it ought to be imposed in a manner that is fair and consistent. The fact that who receives the punishment of death is based more on where they live than what they did, demonstrates the arbitrariness of capital punishment." This is directly from this article "Scattered Justice/geographic disparities of the death penalty", from the ACLU website. ACLU/ Scattered Justice-geographic disparities Regardless of whether you are FOR or AGAINST capital punishment, it's hard to state it is "fairly applied" with a straight face. Call it justice if you want, just don't call it fair. Peace

dcnovice -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 7:49:45 PM)
quote: "Of the 900 executions performed in the U.S. since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 82 percent were carried out by 10 states (AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MO, OK, SC, TX and VA). It's intriguing, I think, that they were largely slave states. There are days I wonder if "The War of Northern Aggression" wasn't actually "The War of Northern Stupidity."

searching4mysir -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 7:51:29 PM)
quote: Call it justice if you want, just don't call it fair. Life isn't fair so why would you expect jurors and justices to be?

dcnovice -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 7:59:45 PM)
quote: Life isn't fair so why would you expect jurors and justices to be? No, life isn't fair. But judicial systems in civilized societies strive to move in that direction.

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 8:23:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Life isn't fair so why would you expect jurors and justices to be? No, life isn't fair. [sm=writing.gif] But judicial systems in civilized societies strive to move in that direction. thanks dc! [sm=goodpost.gif]

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 8:25:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: "Of the 900 executions performed in the U.S. since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 82 percent were carried out by 10 states (AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MO, OK, SC, TX and VA). It's intriguing, I think, that they were largely slave states. There are days I wonder if "The War of Northern Aggression" wasn't actually "The War of Northern Stupidity." The fact that PRIMARILY all of the States that still have the death penalty are in the South, speaks volumes.

TheHeretic -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 9:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Winterapple I am against anyone being executed. I'm afraid I must disagree with you, Winterapple. Some crimes demand the ultimate punishment, and I question whether we have any business calling ourselves a "civilized society," if we lack the courage to stop such criminals from breathing our air. I don't care if it is a deterrent or not. It's a solid guarantee against repeat offenses, and sometimes, with some crimes, it's the only thing that will do. As for the mentally ill, specifically, I think it calls for responsible judgement of individual cases.

igor2003 -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 9:02:54 PM)
--FR-- There are the mentally ill, and maybe they don't deserve the death penalty. But sometimes there is just pure evil: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/26939079.html

Marini -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 9:29:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 --FR-- There are the mentally ill, and maybe they don't deserve the death penalty. But sometimes there is just pure evil: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/26939079.html That is a heinous crime, but at the end of the day crimes like the one in the link, happen frequently these days. What matters most, what the person DID, or the fact the person was mentally ill? Most of us know the "alleged"movie shooter/James Holmes HAS to be mentally ill, right? Time Heartland/Mass Murder and Mental Illness Young James, CAN'T get the death penalty, cause he was mentally ill, right?

Musicmystery -> RE: Executing the Mentally Ill (8/7/2012 10:55:53 PM)
quote: Some crimes demand the ultimate punishment, and I question whether we have any business calling ourselves a "civilized society," if we lack the courage to stop such criminals from breathing our air. There's nothing "courageous" about it.

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