Loss of individuality when entering slavehood

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fallenintoshadow -> Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 9:35:21 AM)
I'm not new to D/s and Top/bottom relationships, but I am new to and wishing to explore a relationship that deepens into slavery. I was pointed to the writings of Ingrid Bellemare which both shocked and entranced me. I definitely see the point she puts forward on non-consensuality. There's several individuals who have contacted me here and based on the discussions that I've been having with them I'm wondering about losing my sense of individuality as a result of long term training/molding. I mean this both in the sense of personality and intellect. Is this a real concern? What impacts should I be prepared for? Anyone out there have any experience with this that they'd be willing to relate to me?

JeffBC -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 9:45:00 AM)
I'll give you two thoughts: A) For those of us who are high-intimacy people, then losing one's sense of individuality is something which happens with every single relationship we form and not something to be avoided. B) Carol worried about this. In our case I thought it was particularly amusing. Wait... you're worried about "losing yourself by being mine?" Isn't that something you should've worried about a dozen years ago when we got married? I don't know if it's possible to modify Carol's raw intellect. I certainly haven't tried to do so nor do I see any obvious reasons I'd want to try. It's certainly possible to modify Carol's personality but is that "losing herself" or "gaining herself"?

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 9:50:03 AM)
JeffBC, thank you for your reply. Those are interesting points to consider.

Kana -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 9:59:21 AM)
Or you could find yourself in a world of structure. Everyone worries about the one, but more often than not, for a certain type of submissive, they flower and blossom when in a tightly controlled TPE. They find an identity and a concrete role, they find a place of certainty where they know exactly what is expected of them, where they stand, their relationship with their SO is clearly defined and delineated and they have accountability and boundaries in their life.

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:19:08 AM)
Kana, thank you also for your reply. The aspects of definition and delineation are important to me. I think a lot of my sense of self come from creative and artistic outlets... maybe it's those that I am most worried about losing. I'm continuing to explore these thoughts...

angelikaJ -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:25:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fallenintoshadow Kana, thank you also for your reply. The aspects of definition and delineation are important to me. I think a lot of my sense of self come from creative and artistic outlets... maybe it's those that I am most worried about losing. I'm continuing to explore these thoughts... You will still be *you*... . You will just belong/be owned by someone else. This is why it is important to be selective when you are seeking. You want to find someone who will cherish and celebrate your artistic and creative talents.

JeffBC -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:26:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fallenintoshadow Kana, thank you also for your reply. The aspects of definition and delineation are important to me. I think a lot of my sense of self come from creative and artistic outlets... maybe it's those that I am most worried about losing. I'm continuing to explore these thoughts... Carol is a woodworker (fine furniture) and an oil painter... among other things. Her art is VERY central to who she is (it's kind of central to her whole family in a professional sort of way). She also worried about giving that to me. At the time, she had some stupid thought in her head that I was going to... what exactly???.... tell her how to do art??? me? the computer guy? Rather, I have taken her art career and established some goals. I have nudged her (note the word "nudge") carefully down a few exploratory paths. I have made her engage with the outside art world. In short, I've done all the good & responsible things one might've hoped without losing my mind. I've applied a bit of business sensibility to the task of making art. That's it. From my own standpoint I suppose I might instruct Carol to paint a specific painting. But that's no different than instructing her to cook a given meal for dinner. I would just be using my slave to accomplish a function not trying to steer her artistic self in any particular direction. In the end, it can't be both "her art" and "my art" at the same time so as her master I get to choose. The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the time what I want is her art.

DesFIP -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:26:22 AM)
Personality doesn't change. You can't convert an extrovert into an introvert. You can teach an extrovert meditation techniques. You can teach an introvert how to manage in areas with many people, but you can't change their basic personality.

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:34:46 AM)
JeffBC, thank you again for your replies. I sincerely appreciate what you have shared with me. DesFIP, thank you for your reply.

littlewonder -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:47:22 AM)
Well Master and I have been together for 6 years and I still feel like my "individual" self, whatever that means. Yes, he has changed me in certain ways and he owns me completely and my life revolves around him but I don't see any of this as a bad thing, actually just the opposite. If this means I no longer am an individual, I'm really ok with that. I guess I just don't understand what you are asking maybe.

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 10:57:13 AM)
quote: I guess I just don't understand what you are asking maybe. Littlewonder, thank you, yes to some extent that too is what I'm fumbling around with myself.

JeffBC -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:10:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fallenintoshadow Littlewonder, thank you, yes to some extent that too is what I'm fumbling around with myself. I think it's what Carol was fumbling around with too (oddly enough since we were married for more than a decade before the collar came into play). It's also what I was hinting around at when I talked about "high intimacy" people. Just like LW, I personally find dubious value in this much vaunted sense of "self" I'm supposed to have. If I wanted to be an individual I'd be single. I didn't. I wanted to be a part of a mated pair-bond... a couple... a union... more than me. If my sense of my own "self" gets in the way of my sense of "us" than I know which gets tossed overboard as useless baggage. One bit of wisdom I've come to understand. EVERYTHING about D/s and especially M/s looks scary in a vacuum. In a vacuum you have to consider all the possible dumbass shit that anyone, anywhere, might think to get up to. I'd encourage you to limit your focus of "dumbass shit" down to stuff that only someone you'd likely agree to belong to would do. In my personal case, that means Carol's fears about her art were ludicrous. I married an art-chick who came from an entire art family. I've cherished that addition to my otherwise overly mathematical life for a long time now. Barring [probably small] mistakes it's unlikely I'm going to fuck up her art because I LOVE her art. More important, I love her. Every once in a while even now Carol will start spinning in her chair over some bit of foolishness like this and I'll simply ask her flat out, "So is that ME that you're worried about or some random dom?" Honestly, the fact that I love her and have demonstrated that over almost two decades now ought to get me at least a few brownie points, no?

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:13:01 AM)
This is a wonderful topic for discussion, so welcome to the discussion side of CM, fallen. Every relationship requires both sides to give a little to get a little. M/s and D/s often require more giving for more getting. I will, however, most vehemently refute your suggestion that losing some of your individuality is inherently wrong or destructive. (But then I consider most here in the US far too individualistic for their own good. We are not taught how to be cooperative people, and it is not a skill that is valued. But I digress.) Successful s-types are those who thrive within a "world of structure." What that world of structure exactly is will differ from couple to couple, but it's always there. In our world, the structure is almost entirely emotional. I have often referred to Himself as my emotional anchor. My meaning is clear, he's the one person I can always reach out for when life's stormy seas threaten to drown me. But, what do you imagine he does? Is his role to always slay my sea dragons? Or does he sometimes tow me to gentler waters and affix an emotional buoy until I can sort things for myself? HHmm, I think I am floundering on this one. I know what I want to say, but the words aren't coming for me. Okay, here's one of my favorite songs. I'd give you the YouTube, but it's the lyrics that are so special. [i]Let Me Be Your Armor by Assemblance 23 Let me take the fall Let me take the blame Let me carry you from hell To home again. Let me walk for you When your legs are weak Let me find the words for you When you can't speak Let me be your armor Let me be your shield Let me take away the pain you feel (your armor) Let me be the light That guides your way through darkest night Let me be your armor. Let me take the blows That were meant for you Let me help you the trials You're going through Let me keep you safe From the world outside Let me wipe away the tears That fill your eyes <refrain> Let me keep you from Experience you need Let me bind you with my selfishness And greed Let me stifle you Let me have control Let me smother Every aspect of your soul <refrain>

captive4ever -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:13:53 AM)
For myself, one thing I am positively seeking is to have my individuality taken away and to be molded into how a Master wants me. Different strokes etc.....

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:30:12 AM)
JeffBC, thank you again for the insights. ChatteParfaitt, thank you for the input and for sharing those lyrics. I am also glad for your kind words regarding this as a topic. Captive4ever, it's not the molding per se that I'm getting at... Think of if more as a question along these lines which I have copied from my profile: "One of things that I am curious about and that I have started asking all potential owners is what is their intention with regards to the unique aspects of my personality and intellect in the context of do they intend to erase/replace all aspects refashioning their possession solely as an extension of the owner's personality and intellect or do they intend to seek out and capitalize on the unique aspects of the possession as a stone cutter does when crafting a jewel from a gemstone?"

kalikshama -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:33:59 AM)
quote: There's several individuals who have contacted me here and based on the discussions that I've been having with them I'm wondering about losing my sense of individuality as a result of long term training/molding. See also our recent thread on training. Which type of trainers are the individuals with whom you are speaking? http://www.collarchat.com/m_4198787/tm.htm

fallenintoshadow -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:36:28 AM)
Thank you kalikshama, I will read through that thread.

captive4ever -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:45:09 AM)
Forgive me, and I am not being facetious, but you are either who you want to be or who your Master wants you to be. As far as I can see you make that choice when you submit to His ownership. A Master ought to be able to tell you in advance what He wants from you, and you make your choice as to whether or not you wish to submit to Him. Everything else being equal, I personally seek a Master who will make significant changes to me both physically and mentally, but if that is not your thing, don't submit to such a Master, find one who wants for you what you want for yourself, and go from there. And by the way it takes forever... there's a lot of fakes....

sexyred1 -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:56:07 AM)
I feel if you are asking the question about fear of losing your individual identity, OP, then it is the wrong thing for you. I don't believe in the concepts of people getting into relationships for the purposes of getting remade, or losing themselves in another. That may sound idealistic or appealing to many, but I believe that you are with someone to learn from them, find balance, help improve each other and yourself and the differences among people are sometimes more interesting than being the same. For me, my personality is the essence of who I am, my brain, interests, talents and desires are part of what I would expect someone would choose me for; whenever someone tried to change me to fit their ideal, it never worked. It only works if they offer support and truth when I express I want to change.

JeffBC -> RE: Loss of individuality when entering slavehood (8/9/2012 11:59:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fallenintoshadow "One of things that I am curious about and that I have started asking all potential owners is what is their intention with regards to the unique aspects of my personality and intellect in the context of do they intend to erase/replace all aspects refashioning their possession solely as an extension of the owner's personality and intellect or do they intend to seek out and capitalize on the unique aspects of the possession as a stone cutter does when crafting a jewel from a gemstone?" A good question and one that I think can be more simply stated as "So do you want a slave or do you want me?" My answer to this question would be... "huh? erase/replace what? You've been reading too much BDSM on the internet. How about if you and I decide if we even like each other before we get into discussions of psychic surgery?" If I wanted some tomato soup in the grocery store I'd go buy some tomato soup. I would not buy beef barley soup then diligently remove everything which wasn't tomato, basil, oregano, or cream and then run on over to the other aisles to get the necessary ingredients to top up the can. Who actually DOES stuff like that? What is way more likely in our house is that I'll buy the best tomato soup I can find then "kick it up a notch" with whatever ingredients I have laying around... toss in a garden tomato or two if I have 'em, etc. Out in the real world (defined as interactions with other humans that I can smell and touch) I have never, ever, not even once, seen anyone talk about getting a generic human then reshaping them into another generic human.

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