RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (Full Version)

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DeviantlyD -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 3:44:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

But the pharmaceutical industry cant make money on it.
So your friends will die a horrible death.


What an utter load of bullshit.

Everybody is entitled to have an opinion, even one that is not backed up by any arguments.[:D]


I would say my statement is closer to fact than your opinion. Plus, I don't have to back it up. If that bothers you, then it's your problem and not mine. [;)]



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 3:49:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

But the pharmaceutical industry cant make money on it.
So your friends will die a horrible death.


What an utter load of bullshit.

Everybody is entitled to have an opinion, even one that is not backed up by any arguments.[:D]


I would say my statement is closer to fact than your opinion. Plus, I don't have to back it up. If that bothers you, then it's your problem and not mine. [;)]

Of course you would say that, I am not bothered by idle twittering.



DomKen -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 6:52:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If there was a cure for either aids or alzheimers big pharma would make billions. If they had it, they would sell it, as they should.

I don't think so, the possible cure for alzheimer is a registered medicine that's already on the market for another ailment. So if this drug also is succesfull for treating alzheimer, BIG PHARMA will loose their billions in research for their medicine. Nothing to do with conspiracies its called a businessmodel.

So if Embrel gets used to tret Alzheimers where would teh drug come from? If the Pharma companies somehow can't make money from it then they won't make it.

quote:

Same goes for the cure for aids. It's not really a medicine you can register at all. You just take bonemarrow from somebody who is immune to AIDS and replant it in the infected patient. Again this kind of treatment is gonna be hard to patent. And the regular medicine against AIDS doesnt cure but just keeps you alive. That makes a lot more money then curing a patient. And business is all about makin big bucks. We all know a lot of the time morals are set aside to make more money. As long as it's not illegal companies will try to ruin the competion, thats just sound business right?

Do you know how much more profit there is in the anti rejection drugs all transplant patients have to take for the rest of their lives?



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 9:19:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If there was a cure for either aids or alzheimers big pharma would make billions. If they had it, they would sell it, as they should.

I don't think so, the possible cure for alzheimer is a registered medicine that's already on the market for another ailment. So if this drug also is succesfull for treating alzheimer, BIG PHARMA will loose their billions in research for their medicine. Nothing to do with conspiracies its called a businessmodel.

So if Embrel gets used to tret Alzheimers where would teh drug come from? If the Pharma companies somehow can't make money from it then they won't make it.

quote:

Same goes for the cure for aids. It's not really a medicine you can register at all. You just take bonemarrow from somebody who is immune to AIDS and replant it in the infected patient. Again this kind of treatment is gonna be hard to patent. And the regular medicine against AIDS doesnt cure but just keeps you alive. That makes a lot more money then curing a patient. And business is all about makin big bucks. We all know a lot of the time morals are set aside to make more money. As long as it's not illegal companies will try to ruin the competion, thats just sound business right?

Do you know how much more profit there is in the anti rejection drugs all transplant patients have to take for the rest of their lives?

I care little about capitalist profits when it comes to cures. Yes I am aware how much money is made on anti rejection drugs, that's why I approve stemcell research. Did you know dutch scientists can grow a piece of meat out of a single cell on a tray.
Science is a marvelous thing. I just want restrictions on how Big Pharma operates. Billions of dollars are lost on double research. For cars and luxury goods I dont give a fuck how much money companies spend. For medicine we need a new model.
My suggestion is that we leave most if not all medical research to universities. No double spending that way and we can sell the patents on drugs uni's develop. This way we will save a lot of money on medicine and education. Thats killing two flies with one blow.



DomKen -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 10:27:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If there was a cure for either aids or alzheimers big pharma would make billions. If they had it, they would sell it, as they should.

I don't think so, the possible cure for alzheimer is a registered medicine that's already on the market for another ailment. So if this drug also is succesfull for treating alzheimer, BIG PHARMA will loose their billions in research for their medicine. Nothing to do with conspiracies its called a businessmodel.

So if Embrel gets used to tret Alzheimers where would teh drug come from? If the Pharma companies somehow can't make money from it then they won't make it.

quote:

Same goes for the cure for aids. It's not really a medicine you can register at all. You just take bonemarrow from somebody who is immune to AIDS and replant it in the infected patient. Again this kind of treatment is gonna be hard to patent. And the regular medicine against AIDS doesnt cure but just keeps you alive. That makes a lot more money then curing a patient. And business is all about makin big bucks. We all know a lot of the time morals are set aside to make more money. As long as it's not illegal companies will try to ruin the competion, thats just sound business right?

Do you know how much more profit there is in the anti rejection drugs all transplant patients have to take for the rest of their lives?

I care little about capitalist profits when it comes to cures. Yes I am aware how much money is made on anti rejection drugs, that's why I approve stemcell research. Did you know dutch scientists can grow a piece of meat out of a single cell on a tray.
Science is a marvelous thing. I just want restrictions on how Big Pharma operates. Billions of dollars are lost on double research. For cars and luxury goods I dont give a fuck how much money companies spend. For medicine we need a new model.
My suggestion is that we leave most if not all medical research to universities. No double spending that way and we can sell the patents on drugs uni's develop. This way we will save a lot of money on medicine and education. Thats killing two flies with one blow.

Universities already do the basic research. Going from the discovery of a possibly effective drug to the point of FDA approval and manufacturing can take billions of dollars of investment. There is no way a university could fund that.

Make up your mind, Embrel is sold by big pharm and is very profitable for them as a treatment for Rhematoid Arthritis so why would they cease making money on it if it cured Alzheimers? Why wouldn't big pharm love the idea of selling anti rejection drugs to every HIV+ person? They already make and sell them and they have a wider audience than stuff like AZT which is strictly for HIV.



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 11:20:03 AM)

Well if the universities can sell the patents they can make billions just like companies. It just requires a switch. We all know Big Pharma overprices their medicines. There is a little riot in Holland cause the insurance companies want to stop funding medicine they think is too expensive. That is discrimination to the core and against any constitution. Plus companies will never do research into medicine they know before hand wo'n't be profitable. So research in the current model is based on profit, not on equality and moral.

It's a fact in the commercial field companies research and develop medicine for the same ailments. Universities could work together in a much better way and soforth not spend billions on the same R&D.

I am not against commercial medicine, I am opposed to commercial medical R&D. Its very obvious to me society is wasting a lot of money on research cause the companies are competing.

I am suggesting a new model for medicine. It's an idea not a definate model. And yes I have made up my mind that the capitalist model on medicine and the law is wrong in many ways. My suggested models would bring better justice and medicine and faster. In the end we can pay less tax because of it.

We have to make choices and every model will have negatives. The current capitalist model is corrupt to the bone and more evidence is surfacing daily.
In that sense I have made my choice.

BTW thanks for the info on Embrel, it's much appreciated.



DomKen -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 11:24:02 AM)

Actually you started off claiming that big pharm was suppressing cures of both Alzheimers and HIV. That of course was nonsense.

Now that you've sobered up/come down you're trying to peddle this new paradigm.



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 11:43:25 AM)

I am still claiming Big Pharm is surpressing anything that will downsize their profit.
That's not a fairytale any industry uses this kind of tactic.
Business is war and every tool within the law is allowed to kill the competiton.
So it's a fact it happens. On what scale is hard to tell of course.
But denying the fact it happens is far worse then suggesting and devolping a new model for basic needs, of the people to live a happy life.
We all know capitalism is just another model for the few owning the many. To me that's kinda like communism where one party controls the masses.
I am pro free market economy. I am dead against capitalism.



SpaceSpank -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 12:04:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's a fact in the commercial field companies research and develop medicine for the same ailments. Universities could work together in a much better way and soforth not spend billions on the same R&D.



Very much a bad idea. Having multiple companies competing is BETTER than them all collaborating. Most of them approach the problem from different viewpoints, so there's not 1 cure being worked on, but several. They way you propose would put all the focus on 1 cure... and if it fails, it's completely back to the drawing board.

You also forget that most biologic pathogens are adaptive. Why do you think you need a flu vaccine every year? Because they don't want to give you a "real" vaccine? No, it's because the virus mutates and changes form a LOT, and therefore you need a booster shot every single time it mutates to a point where the current vaccines are ineffective.

Any disease that is slow to adapt and mutate is much easier to eradicate. Why do you think there are some diseases that are all but gone? It's not because the cure was more "real" than modern cures, it's because the disease it treated was essentially operating on something that could not change fast enough to make it ineffective.

AIDS mutates, there's more than a single strain out there. In addition there are people who have their own natural immune system robust enough to actually defeat the virus on their own. But there's no magic bullet for it, not by a long shot. Currently our bet ability is to cripple it enough to make it a manageable disease, and also make it highly difficult to transmit to others. If there was a cure for any strain of it, you could bet there would be money to be made. They would have a large group right now that would be throwing money at them to get cured, and then many decades worth of mutated strains to work with before you could say it was finally "cured". Much like the common cold, only not quite as long term.

As for Alzheimers, unlike HIV/AIDS it's not a disease in the biological pathogen sense, so it's more about eliminating symptoms. A "cure" wouldn't really exist unless we find a way to actually fix the biological mechanisms responsible for it (Which we are currently nowhere near being able to do), and on top of that, every person is distinct so there are some who treatments work fabulously for, and others who it is completely ineffectual.

So why would they not want a "cure" that makes people entirely dependent upon their product for a normal life? It sounds like the sort of thing you are arguing they are trying to do... so why wouldn't they do it?



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 12:22:48 PM)

I never needed a flu vaccin. That's mostly for old people.
Universities can work on different medicines for the same ailment as well.
Of course diseases can mutate just like our genes can mutate. Delta 32 is a genetic mutation as well.
And alzheimer is a disease wich makes bad protein.
There are many examples how Big Pharma pushes their medicine. All that bullshit about ADHD and ritalin? Its parents overdosing kids with sugar and all that shit.
Research about side effects of medicine can be fabricated etc. etc.
How many doctors just describe anti depressants but not treat the depression with needed therapy.
I have helped many a friend to get off the anti depressants.
Nope I don't agree. Anything business can do, non profit can do also and better.



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 12:30:41 PM)

Over exposing people with vaccins is one of the reasons diseases mutate faster. same goes for anti biotics. chickens are vastly overexposed because they pump them full of anti biotics, wich is a big risk.



SpaceSpank -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 12:40:00 PM)

That's simply because you're confusing and combining issues. It's a common problem.

One of the big issues surrounding child medication is that personal responsibility seems to be a foreign concept.
Those kids with ADD/ADHD and other similar issues? Sure there are some who honestly do need medication. But for many it's that the parents have no desire to take responsibility, and therefore there MUST be something wrong with their kids. It's the same with depression medication, although there is the additional stigma of needing therapy. People know there is something wrong with them (or someone they are a guardian for), but they don't want therapy... that's for crazy people! (Which is exactly what a good number of people think). So they go and see someone and get prescribed drugs.

Just like the kids, there are those who NEED them, they have honest chemical imbalances that need to be sorted out, not any psychological issues to talk and work out.

As for Alzheimers, it's a disease yes, but it is not caused by a virus or bacteria. it's like cancer, your own body causes it. You cannot "cure" that because your own body is the cause. You can simply eradicate the end result (defective cells, etc) But they can always come back at any point because the underlying cause (your body) is still there.
Obviously there are outside influences (of which we have no full and complete understanding yet) that can influence such things. But ultimately, we have no ability to go in and fix the underlying mechanisms that were either broken from the start, or became broken otherwise, that create these diseases.

It will be a long time until we're at a sufficient level of technology and understanding before we can cure anything like that. We have no magic pills.

And non profit organizations need money. They can only do as well as their funding. So if you want one that can go toe to toe with the big pharma companies... I'd like to see that. Who provides the billions in R&d money that is needed every single year for the entire life span of the company?

Who are these people that are willing to spend that much, not only with a guarantee that they will never see a return on investment, but have no guarantees of any effective product ever?

Universities get money from all over to do basic research, they do not create, market, sell, or continually refine all of these products, and take none of the risks of doing so.

I'm not standing up for the rather idiotic practices of these large companies, but they are (generally) just looking to make money while they can, not be mustachio twirling villains.



SpaceSpank -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 12:52:50 PM)

Again, 2 different issues.

Antibiotics are being over prescribed because people will go in feeling "sick" and just get antibiotics, and will often not even finish their prescription. All combined it leads to bacteria growing resistant to it.

Vaccines are meant to be given to as wide a population as possible. The more who get it while it's still "good" the quicker a disease is wiped out. There are some cases where that isn't true, but for the most part it is. If you wipe out the majority of the disease quickly it won't have as much time to adapt and thrive again. At least not for quite some time.

And Chickens are not the topic of discussion, factory style farms have a great deal of issues, over saturation of antibiotics is only one of them, but only impacts humans with a few specific diseases.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Over exposing people with vaccins is one of the reasons diseases mutate faster. same goes for anti biotics. chickens are vastly overexposed because they pump them full of anti biotics, wich is a big risk.




MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 3:31:21 PM)

I will not go into it too much but there is such a thing like the birdflu wich humans can get too.
Bottomline is GlaxoSmithKline just payed a 3 billion dollar fine for describing adult medicine to kids. And it's just the top of the iceberg.

1 Uni's already do a lotta research
2 Uni's can sell the patents to the highest bidders = billions of revenu the BigP is downsized to production mainly.
3 Yes of course its hard to change, because the system we live in is wrong. It's hard to cure cancer too, but we don't stop trying.
Like cancer capitalism has grown to be a major disease. I say fuck it and kill the tumor.

The world is globalizing anyway so why won't we. Plus we in Europe could go on a different course, if we want too, but I would rather see a general consensus. Unlike the rest of the world the euromarket is mainly internal so we can isolate ourselves pretty easy. In the end only one system like in the law will prove itself the best.

Now I know many americans dont like medicare systems and blabla. But consider this. On the other thread I heard a lawyer complain about his 180.000 dollar education. Do you know how many american lives are ruined because they have a 100.000 dollar medical bill?
Thats kinda of a destructive force for your economy.
Yes the european social system has problems too with a lotta costs and we are trying to solve them as we speak. We are starting to have a general consensus here.
1 Our minister of health will bargain for lower prices in medicine.
2 Doctors have proposed themselves to get a maximum on wages
3 we can save billions cutting unnessecary operations, procedures, medicine and other things.
Et voila,
Thats the advantage of a social system. We have a problem and we solve it together.
A society without some sort of medicare system is anti social.

You know our current systems on both sides of the pond are fatally flawed. so instead of proving the anti thesis it might be wise to make a suggestion of a better system. Or is every body only blaming politics?



Musicmystery -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 4:56:05 PM)

Somebody gave you a whole case of bourbon, didn't they.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/11/2012 5:01:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's a fact in the commercial field companies research and develop medicine for the same ailments. Universities could work together in a much better way and soforth not spend billions on the same R&D.



Very much a bad idea. Having multiple companies competing is BETTER than them all collaborating. Most of them approach the problem from different viewpoints, so there's not 1 cure being worked on, but several. They way you propose would put all the focus on 1 cure... and if it fails, it's completely back to the drawing board.

You also forget that most biologic pathogens are adaptive. Why do you think you need a flu vaccine every year? Because they don't want to give you a "real" vaccine? No, it's because the virus mutates and changes form a LOT, and therefore you need a booster shot every single time it mutates to a point where the current vaccines are ineffective.

Any disease that is slow to adapt and mutate is much easier to eradicate. Why do you think there are some diseases that are all but gone? It's not because the cure was more "real" than modern cures, it's because the disease it treated was essentially operating on something that could not change fast enough to make it ineffective.

AIDS mutates, there's more than a single strain out there. In addition there are people who have their own natural immune system robust enough to actually defeat the virus on their own. But there's no magic bullet for it, not by a long shot. Currently our bet ability is to cripple it enough to make it a manageable disease, and also make it highly difficult to transmit to others. If there was a cure for any strain of it, you could bet there would be money to be made. They would have a large group right now that would be throwing money at them to get cured, and then many decades worth of mutated strains to work with before you could say it was finally "cured". Much like the common cold, only not quite as long term.

As for Alzheimers, unlike HIV/AIDS it's not a disease in the biological pathogen sense, so it's more about eliminating symptoms. A "cure" wouldn't really exist unless we find a way to actually fix the biological mechanisms responsible for it (Which we are currently nowhere near being able to do), and on top of that, every person is distinct so there are some who treatments work fabulously for, and others who it is completely ineffectual.

So why would they not want a "cure" that makes people entirely dependent upon their product for a normal life? It sounds like the sort of thing you are arguing they are trying to do... so why wouldn't they do it?


Excellent post! :)

But I'm afraid your knowledge and explanations are wasted on the OP.



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/12/2012 2:11:16 AM)

Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups. I don't let anything go to waste. Do you really think I am here because I thought people would agree. Americans are addicted to capitalism. So it's the perfect breeding ground for me in the anti thesis.

The people fight like puppets over left and rightwing ideas and very little change is made. In Europe left and right agree about medicare, guncontrol and more shit like that.
Grow up.[:D]
And like you can read I even thanked DomKen for his info. I respect my enemy. You sir do very little, but scratch your ass and not contribute to the convo but, excellent utter BS.



FullCircle -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/12/2012 9:40:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Alzheimer is a sickness I dont have to make multiple. I am dutch we call it alzheimer from german. You english bend it to alzehimers. Just like you say Dementias?
I cant help it your grammars are corrupted[:D]


Since Alzheimer is also a person that discovered Alzheimer's disease if you don't add the s then it sounds like you've found a cure that'll bring the physician back from the dead.



SirNose -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/12/2012 10:04:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

But the pharmaceutical industry cant make money on it.
So your friends will die a horrible death.

Is that a new Michael Crichton film?



MrBukani -> RE: Aids and alzheimer can be cured! (8/12/2012 2:27:33 PM)

Yeah yeah yeah, fact remains the guy in question is cured from AIDS completely and the guy with Alzheimers (grammarpolice) woke up and can have full convo's again.
Some negative whopper here said cancer cant be cured either, pathological bullshit. Go ask the people who defeated cancer and see if they feel cured and ask a doctor.

I guess you people like being sick and love living in denial.[:D]



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