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Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 9:35:24 PM

AislynLass

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I've been following the recent thread started by LadyPact and also the thread on FetLife regarding the incident with the candle burns on the submissive. I feel I've benefited from both of these threads in learning and thinking about things that should be an important part of the discussion before play. I totally agree with comments that were made regarding my self-responsibility as a submissive in negotiating the scene and in communicating with potential Dominants/Tops. However, I still can't help but feel that the Dominant/Top has an especial responsibility in ensuring that the scene does not turn disastrous. I view this as part of the responsibility that the Dominant/Top takes on by being the one in charge.

Perhaps this is not a perfect analogy, but I try to be the most informed patient I can be in terms of researching my doctor, asking questions, learning as much as I can about what I need, discussing risk factors, etc. etc. However, when it comes time for the actual procedures, I am literally putting myself in that person's hands. I've done all I can do up to that point in being informed and trying to ensure for myself that my doctor is competent, skilled, and knowledgeable, but when the scalpel is in his or her hands, it then comes down to my doctor executing the procedure properly AND being aware of and responding appropriately if my body is not reacting to the procedure well.

I hope I expressed my point clearly enough. Again, I definitely agree about my self-responsibility as a submissive, but I couldn't help but think that the Dominant/Top has a particular responsibility that they take on by being in charge of the scene and the one is operating the flogger, the whip, the candles, etc.

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Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

Post #: 1

RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:07:38 PM

JeffBC

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I would completely agree. I think there's several areas of responsibility to be discussed here.

You are accepting responsibility to negotiate clearly and in good faith. Yay.
He, conversely, must do the same.

From the top's standpoint, a part of "good faith" would be not lying when he says, "I know how to do xxxx activity"

Aside from that, I think that they both have a responsibility to accept the fact that risk means... well... there is the potential for harm. The specific bit of asshattery in question was just that... asshattery. But sometimes things just go wrong. I think I'd be expecting the bottom to also accept that responsibility... assuming a valid determination between asshattery and just "odds against me" stuff.

The problem with the doctor analogy is that doctors are licensed. You have a reasonable expectation that someone with a PhD and licensure should be reasonably competent at what they do. There is no such thing for tops which places a much higher burden of research on the "customer".

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AislynLass)

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:19:25 PM

BambiBoi

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I agree with Jeff that going in, both top and bottom have very similar responsibilities to honestly communicate. Once play starts, however... Well consider this. When the submissive "fails" what happens? He or she drops what was in their hands or their mouth onto the ground, at worst. When the dominant "fails" injuries can be serious. It is not difficult to create a hypothetical where one significant mistake could leave a submissive blind, burned, cut, panicked, or even dead. I admittedly haven't thought about how to divvy up the responsibility, but its clear that the importance of doing a good job is higher for the top.

I'll be back after some time to think on this.

ETA: It might be beneficial to separate a few concepts. There is a question of how much risk each party is taking, how much control over movement and change, and how fault should be allocated. Ideally these three concepts meld together into 1 number. "You took 1/3 of the risk, caused 1/3 of the damage, so you are 1/3 responsible." But here they do not.

For practical purposes, the bottom assumes 100% of the risk.
For most bondage+impact play, the top controls 100% of the movement. Maybe 95% if the bottom squirms.
It doesn't feel right to me to cut the baby in half and say "if things go wrong you're both 1/2 at fault."

< Message edited by BambiBoi -- 8/12/2012 10:25:16 PM >

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:23:54 PM

littlewonder

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We both have a responsibility in our relationship. Mine was to not get involved with a doofus and know what I was getting into before I submitted to him.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 8/12/2012 10:24:12 PM >

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:31:25 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
We both have a responsibility in our relationship. Mine was to not get involved with a doofus and know what I was getting into before I submitted to him.

OK.. on this whole personal responsibility thing I'm just going to appoint you my spokes-pincushion.

@Bambiboi
Note I separated out asshattery and odds. But lets look at something different. How about... luge. You got one guy driving so by your reasoning if it all goes bad it's his fault? Team sports don't work that way.

And even on the asshattery thing LW's point is solid and in fact reinforced by your point.

For practical purposes, the bottom assumes 100% of the risk.

OK, we both agree the bottom assumes 100% of the [physical] risk. I think the top (if they are male) may assume something akin to 100% of the legal risk but that's a different question. So given that the bottom is the one in physical risk, do you think it's safer to point fingers at the top or to mention that little fact to the bottom in question and suggest she assume full responsibility since she's got full risk. Do you REALLY want the guy with the responsibility to have no skin in the game?

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:47:56 PM

BambiBoi

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Leave it to a Canadian to use luge as a metaphor.

You've got a great point about not absolving the top because the bottom assumed the risk by laying on the table. I support a presumption of blame, and ergo responsibility against the top. However, the proximate cause must be considered. What, in the aggregate, was the net effective element of causation. The proximate cause does not have to be the nearest in time to the injury. So a defective violet wand that permanently burns skin is the proximate cause of a burn, not the top who used it expecting a safe little (comparatively little) zap.

That is a factual question, where every case will be different. So that's boring. I prefer to talk about the burden and presumption. A bottom need only say "I was hurt" and everyone will look at the top. The burden shifts, and the top (if he can) can transfer blame to another source. If not, that's the cost of having a cute blond thing bent over a table to fulfill your every whim.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 10:56:23 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

not the top who used it expecting a safe little (comparatively little) zap.

It's the top's responsibility to inspect the wand and educate himself on the possibility of burns and how to operate the wand.

quote:

A bottom need only say "I was hurt" and everyone will look at the top.

Not me. I would look at the bottom and ask how long they knew the person, did they negotiate terms and limits, do you know the top's name even? What did you do to alleviate your situation beforehand?

Sorry but this idea of laying the complete responsibility on the top is like saying it is the refrigerator's fault that I drank spoiled milk.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/12/2012 11:32:26 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

A bottom need only say "I was hurt" and everyone will look at the top. The burden shifts, and the top (if he can) can transfer blame to another source. If not, that's the cost of having a cute blond thing bent over a table to fulfill your every whim.

Well, if that system makes you feel "safe" then more power to you. To me that looks like the heart of peril. Let's just recap how that all works out.

- Idiot top does idiotic thing.
- Sub says, "He did it."
- Everyone says, "Bad dom"
- Everyone nurtures poor sub.

Dom may or may not learn. But what has the sub learned here? How has the sub in any way gotten any safer? In successfully assigning all the blame to the top the bottom has absolved herself of any need to learn anything... for instance... the really important lesson that she chose an idiot. That, in turn, enables her to continue choosing idiots.

So while in theoretical blame terms I might agree with you to some extent, in practical reality I much prefer littlewonder's view because... you know... it'll actually keep her safe.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BambiBoi)

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 2:20:45 AM

CeriseNin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

We both have a responsibility in our relationship. Mine was to not get involved with a doofus and know what I was getting into before I submitted to him.

Well said.

One of the many reasons I never played publicly is that I don't trust a stranger to hit me with a silk scarf, much less poke me with needles then play with fire. The onus is on the s just as much as the D when these scenes go sideways, IMO. That said, even with someone I know and trust, if things go wrong, I'd bear half the blame for choosing to take certain risks and half the responsibility of fixing it.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 9

RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 6:52:17 AM

AislynLass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Sorry but this idea of laying the complete responsibility on the top is like saying it is the refrigerator's fault that I drank spoiled milk.

I had hoped in my OP that I made the point clear that I was laying complete responsibility on the Top. I said several times that I fully agreed with my self-responsibility as a submissive in communicating with the Dominant/Top, asking questions, negotiating the scene, and educating myself. The point in my OP is that after all of this where the submissive has done what she or he can to ensure that the scene will be a good experience, that the lion's share of responsibility then shifts to the Dominant/Top to ensure a positive outcome since he or she is the one actually wielding the whip or the flogger, etc., and to be prepared to respond appropriately if something does start to go wrong.

Yes, there is an assumption of risk that both parties take and I am not absolving the submissive from that. However, it almost sounds like some are saying in a scene...oh well, she knew something could go wrong so too bad. And this is where I feel that does need to be accountability on the part of the Dominant/Top as the person who was in control of the scene. In the example that LadyPact had raised in her thread, the Top should have realized that the submissive's skin was being burned and stopped the scene before further damage was done. I also believe that the Top should have realized the submissive needed to go to ER asap and certainly the submissive should not have driven herself home in the condition she was in. This could have resulted in accident not only for the submissive, but also other motorists who certainly did NOT consent to assume any risk or be a part of the scene.

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Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 10

RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 7:05:44 AM

LadyConstanze

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I do see it a bit different, while I agree that both should be informed about the play they are deciding to engage in, aware of all the risks, the problem is that things can still go wrong, unfortunately none of us is 100%, the most skilled top might make a mistake, we're human after all. In case shit happens and things really turn sour, it might not be a mistake of the top, even something the top didn't know and it wasn't even disclosed to him or her (meds the sub was on, a medical problem he or she kept to themselves, etc.), take the worst case scenario and you got the ambulance there and the cops, they're not going to bother with what the sub hasn't told you, you're the one on the wrong end of the whip. It's self-preservation to be overly careful as a top.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 7:05:55 AM

JhonP

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Why would you expect even one functioning neuron in a dom?

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 7:11:27 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JhonP

Why would you expect even one functioning neuron in a dom?

Because nobody else is as bitter and angry as you are.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 7:12:40 AM

AislynLass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

The problem with the doctor analogy is that doctors are licensed. You have a reasonable expectation that someone with a PhD and licensure should be reasonably competent at what they do. There is no such thing for tops which places a much higher burden of research on the "customer".

Thank you for your comments, Jeff. I thought this particular statement that you made was well-said. You made a good point here regarding my doctor analogy. I smiled at the thought of a licensure board for Dominants and Tops I know that even if such a thing existed, it would still be just as important to have the communication between Dominant and submissive, and that my responsibilities as a submissive would still be the same, but it did raise an interesting thought to me that perhaps for some Dominants/Tops, it would make them more mindful of their responsibility so as not to have their "licenses" revoked. But ultimately that is the point I suppose. I want a Dominant/Top who is mindful of that responsibility because it is in his ethical code as a human being to be so, and not because a licensure board told him to be.

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Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 14

RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 10:36:36 AM

ResidentSadist

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I think your doctor analogy is a nice example of each person’s area of responsibility and raises a set of questions that would clearly define the lines as I see them.

When you pick a doctor that inspires trust? Do you shop for one that is competent, has references and credentials? The same should be true with a partner.

When your doctor prescribes something, do you have to know everything, all the medical information to follow his edict . . . or do you follow his lead unless it offends your sensibilities? The same should be true with a partner.

If a doctor says you have an infection and prescribes antibiotics, you don’t need to go get a second opinion or study medicine. However, if he gives you some bizarre remedy that just doesn’t make sense, your self preservation should take control and seek more information. The same is true when a relationship or play partner wants to do something that offends your sensibility. Herein lay the lines of self responsibility as I see them.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 10:43:32 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Mine was to not get involved with a doofus and know what I was getting into before I submitted to him.

Well, umm, I think you missed it on this point.

It's a well known fact that he IS a doofus...

He's just a lovable doofus

who happens to be well liked and respected by many of us.

(I think I had better prepare for the lashback)

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 11:18:27 AM

LaTigresse

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For ME, I take full responsibility. But, I am that way with all aspects of my life.

When I see s-types pissing and whining about some fuckup with some dominant/top, and they are getting the "Oh you poor lamb." routine, I want to bitch slap the lot of them into next Tuesday. Grown adults need to take responsibility for themselves.......period.

Example.....If I dress like a slut, go to a downtown bar, get drunk, and try to walk back home by myself, get attacked and raped in the process, I feel I have some responsibility for what happened to me. I do not remove any responsibility from the attacker/s, but I've behaved in a manner that put myself at greater risk. Shame on them AND shame on me for being a dumbass.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 11:46:56 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass
Yes, there is an assumption of risk that both parties take and I am not absolving the submissive from that. However, it almost sounds like some are saying in a scene...oh well, she knew something could go wrong so too bad.

I said that.... within limits. It depends on the nature of "how it went bad". LP's example is a no-brainer.

Among all your "I believes" (which I also believe) you missed one.

"I believe this sub is too unsafe for anyone to play with and she ought to be shunned from the BDSM community for that reason."

Think that's gonna happen? But I gotta tell you that if I wanted to "protect" that sub, that's how I'd be doing it. Not by giving her a dubious "protector".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 18

RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 11:47:44 AM

BambiBoi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For ME, I take full responsibility. But, I am that way with all aspects of my life.

When I see s-types pissing and whining about some fuckup with some dominant/top, and they are getting the "Oh you poor lamb." routine, I want to bitch slap the lot of them into next Tuesday. Grown adults need to take responsibility for themselves.......period.

Example.....If I dress like a slut, go to a downtown bar, get drunk, and try to walk back home by myself, get attacked and raped in the process, I feel I have some responsibility for what happened to me. I do not remove any responsibility from the attacker/s, but I've behaved in a manner that put myself at greater risk. Shame on them AND shame on me for being a dumbass.

To be clear, I'm not touching the rape metaphor in any way.

I wanted to clarify that I put a lot of the responsibility on the bottom in the front half, but more continuing responsibility on the top once play begins. We were throwing around percentages before, but they do not do justice. The bottom has the initial responsibility to lay out all limits, establish that their safeword is known, and any other sub-safety requirements (inspecting gear, though that might spoil the surprise in some scenes). At this stage the top's job is to say "yes, I agree" or "sorry, that's a deal breaker, we can't play (or we must negotiate)." Then responsibility shifts to the top to be competent and honestly follow the agreement.

For the record, the refrigerator metaphor is specious. (+5 points, See word thread). To say that the refrigerator is to blame for drinking spoiled milk is backwards. The drinker is the top, not the bottom, because the drinker is taking the actions. The faulty milk/refrigerator is the bottom because it is waiting there to be interacted with. Once that is the case, the metaphor works fine. The drinker (top) is to blame because he or she did an action (drank milk) without the competence needed on how to do it.

Another point, I agree that a top has the responsibility to exam the instruments that will be used in play. A chipped glass dildo, for example, is something that can be seen and avoided. But a violet wand that zaps with dangerous force, or an even better example, a wand which zaps with dangerous force randomly unknown to the top is a latent defect that the top could not have foreseen.

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RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts - 8/13/2012 11:53:33 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
I wanted to clarify that I put a lot of the responsibility on the bottom in the front half

This sounds like the way a politician uses the word "responsibility". Out of curiosity, is there any net effect of this burden of responsibility that the sub has up front or is it just... you know.. a nice word to use?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BambiBoi)

Post #: 20

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