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Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 11:25:01 AM

sofaking

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline

i guess my question is targeted mostly towards the M/s lifestyle but it could apply to play as well... i've noticed a lot of subs say they are naughty and need punishment but almost in the same sentence admit to being masochistic. it seems a bit ironic to me and i wonder how masters generaly handle this. does one whip a slave thats been bad if they enjoy being whipped? won't that just negatively reinforce their behaviour? or maybe one might want them to act up so you can commence the whipping???

thx in advance...

'let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised.'

Post #: 1

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 11:41:00 AM

awhisper

Posts: 39
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline

Just my opinion, but i believe there are more than one types of discipline. i have had experiences with discipline as a reward delivered with love, that brought me into a beautiful space; And i have been disciplined as a form of punishment and suffered miserably, with the same tools/implements. It seems to lie within the mindset of both parties involved, and the application of those tools.

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 11:51:14 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sofaking

i guess my question is targeted mostly towards the M/s lifestyle but it could apply to play as well... i've noticed a lot of subs say they are naughty and need punishment but almost in the same sentence admit to being masochistic. it seems a bit ironic to me and i wonder how masters generaly handle this. does one whip a slave thats been bad if they enjoy being whipped? won't that just negatively reinforce their behaviour? or maybe one might want them to act up so you can commence the whipping???

thx in advance...

'let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised.'

It's quite simple really.......a punishment is something you don't like or wish for......... there's many ways to punish.....it's not limited to the physical.

agirl

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 3

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 11:52:16 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I like spankings, the dom I am seeing knows this, and he would never spank me if i was displeasing to him. Beating me is my reward, and I do not misbehave to get it. I am not a sammy.

Some people get off on that whole scene... it is a kink for them. While I might tell my dom "Daddy I have been a bad girl and I {insert misbehavior here}. I should be spanked". That is a game, not actually trying to make my dom mad.

Some submissives need their dom to be angry when they get disciplined, and while I have wondered if that is really safe, it is their kink. To each their own.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 4

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 11:58:58 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

I'm quite a SAM (ya think?) but in a playful way. At the end of the day, I WANT to get a solid beating, and any Domme worth the title would know that. So if I misbehave, why would she reward me? No beatings for a week would have me kneeling and smiling in half a second.

So punish me all you want, just know what's a punishment and what's a reward in my books.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 12:07:51 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Now, just because one is a masochist doesn't mean they would also be a slave in a M/s relationship or a sub in a D/s relationship. To rephrase you question....

For M/s or D/s relationships how does the Master/Dominant execute punishment for a masochistic slave/submissive?

Remember not all slaves/submissives are Masochists and not all Master's Dominants are Sadists.

I am in a M/s relationship with two girls; Alandra and kyra. Both girls also happen to have masochistic pleasures and I am rather sadistic as well *g*.

I have done a lot of research and consideration of the whole concept of Punishment/Reward within the relationship of M/s. I have tried various avenues of thought and the one way that I find that has worked the best for me is to avoid limiting myself to the narrow view of the Punishment/Reward scenario. I don't feel that a given Cause will consistently result in a given "Effect". It is true that on occasions that a particular "Cause" can result in an expected "Effect" to some degree of certainty. However, managing people is much different than managing a thing. I can push a glass of water over the edge of a table (the cause) and the glass will fall spilling the contents (the effect). I can do this given action a million times and each time the effect will be consistent result, spilled contents. But, are people that predictable? I think not. Even the slights changes in the variables will result in a difference in the effects.

The purpose of Punishment/Rewards is to bring about a given effect. I find that to many individuals consider that a given Cause will consistently result in the wanted effect. I work more in a reverse to that concept. I consider the desired effect that I want and execute the cause that I consider has the best probability of achieving what I want. One must observe and perceive as much of the given situation as possible in making decision of what actions or inactions (cause) will result in my desired results (effect). I am always considering what is occurring and making the comparison to what I want and Making adjustments as needed to bring the two into alignment.

The simple consideration of what kind of punishment to give a masochist makes the assumption that any cause will result into a predictable effect for any masochist. Masochists are people and people are not all the same. Therefore, no singular punishment is going to be the right answer for every masochist. What you need to consider is the specific effect you are wishing to obtain. Consider the current situation in as many possible perspectives as possible. This means, appreciating to the best of your ability the specific masochistic mindset at the specific moment in time. Compare what you want to what you currently have and then make a choice of action/inaction that will bring the two into alignment.

If one's approach to solve a problem is to use a Hammer.... then you better hope all your problems are Nails!

edited to fix my horrible grammar and spelling

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 6/10/2006 12:18:59 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 12:19:35 PM

yourbadgal

Posts: 26
Joined: 1/28/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline

I've to say, that I like spanking, yes..
It's like.. something nice to get me horny but also a punishment, because in my head it's the "shit, i made him angry" feeling that makes me feel sorry. That's why i can't be beaten as a reward, because this feeling will be there.
I only wanted to say that :-)

Anne

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 7

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 12:32:41 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I see the difference in punishment for masochists via punishments. Might use the same word, but there is a different mental outcome.

I prefere the usage of the word discipline when I am being 'punished' for disobedience and punishment reserved as the word used for the enjoyable part. But its not a hard and fast rule - its communication of the intent, rather than what you call it.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 12:45:45 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Now, just because one is a masochist doesn't mean they would also be a slave in a M/s relationship or a sub in a D/s relationship. To rephrase you question....

For M/s or D/s relationships how does the Master/Dominant execute punishment for a masochistic slave/submissive?

Remember not all slaves/submissives are Masochists and not all Master's Dominants are Sadists.

Thank you for saying this. Too often I have had Doms tell me that they like to use (insert favorite implement of pain) and ask if it is one of my favorites. I'm a submissive, probably slave, not a masochist. I will take pain as a method of serving a Dom/me, but it's not the pain that I find pleasure in - it's the service.

Punishmentment for me is what some others would find pleasurable -- any kind of pain. The best punishment for me is to sit me down and not allow me to serve. I can't stand that. It hurts worse than being caned or flogged. Just knowing I've been displeasing will drive me to tears.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 2:22:47 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sofaking

i guess my question is targeted mostly towards the M/s lifestyle but it could apply to play as well... i've noticed a lot of subs say they are naughty and need punishment but almost in the same sentence admit to being masochistic. it seems a bit ironic to me and i wonder how masters generaly handle this. does one whip a slave thats been bad if they enjoy being whipped? won't that just negatively reinforce their behaviour? or maybe one might want them to act up so you can commence the whipping???

thx in advance...

'let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised.'

You answered your own question. If your sub likes being whipped punishment for bad behavior would be something that they hate like cleaning the bathroom and toilet completely on their knees neked...real bitch when you find grit above the level you can reach on your knees.
Whipping would be a reward for good behavior or just because you feel like it.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 2:25:28 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

I'm quite a SAM (ya think?) but in a playful way.
benji

Faint swoon REALLY?? OMG

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 11

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 2:29:03 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Thank you for saying this. Too often I have had Doms tell me that they like to use (insert favorite implement of pain) and ask if it is one of my favorites

Not all tops, masters or mistresses are this way. My favorite impliment for punishement is a dime...figure that one out.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 12

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 2:46:22 PM

merrymasochist

Posts: 156
Joined: 9/2/2004
Status: offline

To my way of thinking, your question can be broken down into three parts. As a submissive masochist, I can honestly tell you that there is a world of difference between pain for pleasure and punishment play as compared to actual punishment for a serious breach or correction .

Pain for pleasure is just that. I love what's being done. He loves doing it and we both enjoy to the max.

Punishment play is more of a role play scene or playful revenge. Say I'm sassy within my boundaries or lose count when asked (I'm horrible at counting.) or something equally non-serious, he can "git-me" for it. This type "punishment" isn't actually punishment at all. There is no true anger or upset and it simply adds spice to the scene. Sort of a game of act and react with no harm or foul in its intentions.

Actual punishment for a serious breach in conduct or correction is a whole different kettle of fish. The anger and/or upset is very real and must be dealt with. Nine times out of ten, a simple LOOK of disappointment is more than enough and has the effect of a whip slash across the heart. (Which most sub-maso's will agree is one of the most singular non-pleasurable pains that can ever happen to them because when we've done wrong and earn that LOOK we will flay and beat ourselves up over it worse than anything that could be physically done to us.) Once the matter has been discussed and resolved with means and ways to -not- have the problem occur again, actual physical punishment offers closure rather than pleasure. What is used for that physical punishment can vary from person to person. There's usually one item we absolutely hate for one reason or another and it's reserved specifically for those times.

There's no pleasure in real punishment pain because the mindset is totally different. He's punishing me because I've erred and caused him unhappiness and disappointment. I'm enduring what I hate most because I know I've done wrong and have earned it, and to be honest, I will do and endure just about anything to correct and ease the unhappiness and disappointment I've caused him. This is not a recipe for a good time at all. So you see, true punishment is in no way any "fun" or re-enforcement of bad behavior. It's a tool to correct serious errors and problems.

I've rambled a bit but I hope I've managed an answer to your question amongst it all.

Sincerely,
merry

_____________________________

"What hath night to do with sleep?"
J. Milton

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 13

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 2:49:26 PM

enigmabrat

Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline

There is a difference for some subs in the way it is given,
I know for me it is more the fact that it is a punishment that gets to me
the disapointment the lecutre is worse then the pain the spanking just sort of drives things home

_____________________________

Leather strap $85.00 on Master card
Wooden paddle $50.00 on Master card
ratten cane $48.00 on Master card

a Master that can use them all Priceless

(in reply to merrymasochist)

Post #: 14

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 4:39:16 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U
My favorite impliment for punishement is a dime...figure that one out.

Place the dime flat on the wall and have the person hold it there with the tip of their nose for however long you determine?

That's just a guess. Punishment isn't really part of my dynamic, but that is what came to mind when I read your post.

kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 4:56:35 PM

JassWolf

Posts: 59
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline

Just for Me and mine:

Discipline is a form of teaching and instruction. Last night, for example, was a flogging, but with a point ... to teach and encourage her to let herself go and give control, not only of the flogger but herself to me. Discipline could also teach her not to talk back, or to encourage study ... whatever. And it could take any appropriate form that would encourage that behavior according to the dom/me's requirements. For example, last night's flogging would not have been useful discipline had I allowed her to control any aspect of it.

Punishment, otoh, is corrective. It should encourage the submissive to make "correct" choices; it should be proportionate to the crime; it should never be something s/he finds pleasurable (as others have said); and it should carry with it clear instructions for the "correct" decision. My submissive is pretty new still, so punishment would normally occur only after two steps have occurred. First, she should have an explanation (and a demo if needed) of what is required; second, if she forgets or makes an error, she will be corrected with a second explanation (and demonstration, perhaps) ... along with a warning that the next breach will result in a punishment.

Not sure many would agree with this, but it's the way I am comfortable with the subject and hope it helps.

JW

_____________________________

The greater part of what my neighbors call good I believe in my soul to be bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well? -- Thoreau

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 5:05:14 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Hello A/all,

I am one of those types who live by the basic precept that
it is imperative to ignore any behavior I dont want repeated.
On the other hand, one of my previous subs was originally
trained by somebody who would beat her almost bloody and
then anally violate her when he was angry with her. Which,
according to her, was frequently.

So we hook up, I am young(er) and stupid(er) than I am now,
but I realize I really dont want somebody around trying to make
me angry. It was a no-win situation for her; even if I get angry,
I have very rigid controls over what I allow myself to do whilst
angry. Besides which, I dont plan on letting somebody trying to
anger me know that they were successful (if they are) or not.

So I tried the obvious; timeouts in the corner, holding a quarter
against the wall at a play party, no orgasms for a week, etc.

But she persisted, and soon it was superglueing her nose to the
wall of a play party.

And finally, she hit what I call my shit limit. Which is the amount
of b.s. I will put up with before I turn around and walk away
forever. Which I did. I am fairly slow to hit that point (glacial,
almost) but I will eventually hit it.

Want to be spanked and ravaged and violated and done like dinner,
be nice. At least until it is time to not be nice.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to JassWolf)

Post #: 17

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 5:15:59 PM

MasterRobsalayna

Posts: 212
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

Interesting topic. The worst punishment Master has used is withdrawing Master from alayna. Master often tells alayna His punishments will not be what slave expects nor what slave would like.

Master's slave likes face slapping. If Master were to use that as a punishment, alayna imagines it would be MUCH different than what alayna has experienced thus far.

_____________________________

Master Rob's alayna
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The only thing in life that i regret is living too many days regretting too many things. Life is for the living and i choose to live!

(in reply to sofaking)

Post #: 18

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 5:19:23 PM

Sab

Posts: 325
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: Canada
Status: offline

I could spank, flog, cane, deprive - anything, but her understanding that any of those would make the punishment shorter. Taking away her physical contact from me would drive her mad, literally.

Punishment doesn't need to be physical - unless you just want to play the 'game'.

_____________________________

God blessed it and it brought me to her.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 19

RE: Punishment or Pleasure - 6/10/2006 5:58:31 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I enjoy uswing floggers and when I hand carve the handles they are made so they can be iserted into a wet pussy (I prefer to slide a condiom over to stop the handle from getting too slippery. It is fun having a girl parade through who ever is present naked with the flogger inserted and the tails hanging from her pussy.. However in many cases the flogger ius used for pleasure (Even the one with tails made from bicycle rubber tubes and stings like hornets). For punishment I prefer the five blkaded gorean slave whip which will hurt especially when I use the full force of my arm and body behind the final swing aimed at her arse....Still it is her punishment and my pleasure........There is something very errotic watching a slave who has been publically whipped released from the pole and made to crawl through a crowd and return the whip to the place where it is kept... Suporising how sexually arroused and wet she is at the end of this......

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Sab)

Post #: 20

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