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Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:00:40 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		Soon to be Vice President Paul Ryan says our rights do not come from government but from God.

The Declaration of Independence says this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

First, where is the right to join the Boy Scouts even if you're gay, I don't see that here.

Second, who is right about where rights come from?...

...oh nevermind, Ryan and the Declaration say the same thing. So, the Right is right.

Again.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 8/13/2012 9:01:06 PM >

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:07:04 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Soon to be Vice President Paul Ryan says our rights do not come from government but from God.


Could you have started the thread based on someone who'll still hold public office next year ay least?

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:08:38 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		He already had the fundie vote......yawn......

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:09:07 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Soon to be Vice President Paul Ryan says our rights do not come from government but from God.

The Declaration of Independence says this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

First, where is the right to join the Boy Scouts even if you're gay, I don't see that here.

Second, who is right about where rights come from?...

...oh nevermind, Ryan and the Declaration say the same thing. So, the Right is right.

Again.

You are assuming that "Our Creator" is God

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:14:24 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Our rights are endowed by our creator.  Claiming them, having government recognize and uphold them, typically requires some struggle.  The Declaration is beautifully written, but note as well that the Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the People, but prohibits the government infringing upon them.


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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:15:25 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Soon to be Vice President Paul Ryan says our rights do not come from government but from God.

The Declaration of Independence says this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

First, where is the right to join the Boy Scouts even if you're gay, I don't see that here.

Second, who is right about where rights come from?...

...oh nevermind, Ryan and the Declaration say the same thing. So, the Right is right.

Again.

Gay boys aren't entitled to the pursuit of happiness?


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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:19:26 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

First, where is the right to join the Boy Scouts even if you're gay, I don't see that here.


Spe4aking as an assistant scoutmaster and concerned parent. We're working on it. I don't think it will be a right though. It'll be a policy change for the better. I find it troubling that they would rule against a gay parent wishing to be involved in scouting at a young age. MANY of us find it UNACCEPTABLE to disallow a so-called 'openly gay' child admittance to Scouting. More than 100 Eagle Scouts turned in their Eagles in the past two - three weeks and the number is growing. We are all going camping 10 miles off the coast friday for a week. but when we come back we'll be having a parents' meeting to discuss what we intend to do concerning the issue.


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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:21:23 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Gay boys aren't entitled to the pursuit of happiness?


I thought he liked to hang out at the gym?

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:21:35 PM   
Fellow


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Status: offline 		All rights are not created equal. Some may be taken away by the government. More tyrannical the government, less rights you have. The constitution does not protect against tyrannical government. They have guns. Guns win against paper. How much is left intact from the Bill of Rights? 

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:23:34 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		So guns beat paper which beats the Rock of Ages.

So shouldn't the Rock of Ages beat guns?

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 9:25:43 PM   
Sanity


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Thats right, only guns grant rights, and its really that simple.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

All rights are not created equal. Some may be taken away by the government. More tyrannical the government, less rights you have. The constitution does not protect against tyrannical government. They have guns. Guns win against paper. How much is left intact from the Bill of Rights? 



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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/13/2012 11:03:48 PM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		So, is Ryan saying that an atheist by not believing in a creator by extension has no rights?

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 12:11:40 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

So, is Ryan saying that an atheist by not believing in a creator by extension has no rights?



It doesn't matter if you believe in God, only that God believes in you. (Or pick your own damn metaphor for that which bestows what is inherent.)


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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 4:24:18 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Soon to be Vice President Paul Ryan says our rights do not come from government but from God.


Does Ryan really go around saying things like that?

I love American politics! Yeehah!

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 5:24:13 AM   
SpaceSpank


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Status: offline 		God has nothing to do with rights. Only people.

There have been societies throughout human history that have believed in different god(s) or none at all, and they still had various rights that people were granted, even if it only applied to certain ones.

When enough people gather in a close enough area things like this are needed. Being able to walk over and steal your neighbors property without any retribution leads to an unproductive situation for all. At some point "rights" come up because they have been deemed good for the collective whole by the society that created them. Religious rules are no different... "thou shall not kill" is a commandment because in a general sense it's a good one, not being allowed to just kill someone randomly for no reason benefits all involved in the vast majority of situations.

So if you want to know where rights come from, just look at the people around you, that's where they come from.

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 5:36:05 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


So shouldn't the Rock of Ages beat guns?

They can sure fuck up your scope.

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 6:08:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So guns beat paper which beats the Rock of Ages.
So shouldn't the Rock of Ages beat guns?


All we have to do is sing a Def Leppard song?!?!?
Or, is that make gun totin' bad buys watch the movie and/or musical?

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 6:17:25 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank
God has nothing to do with rights. Only people.
There have been societies throughout human history that have believed in different god(s) or none at all, and they still had various rights that people were granted, even if it only applied to certain ones.


Them's not called "rights." Them's called "privileges." Huuuuuge difference.

quote:

When enough people gather in a close enough area things like this are needed. Being able to walk over and steal your neighbors property without any retribution leads to an unproductive situation for all. At some point "rights" come up because they have been deemed good for the collective whole by the society that created them. Religious rules are no different... "thou shall not kill" is a commandment because in a general sense it's a good one, not being allowed to just kill someone randomly for no reason benefits all involved in the vast majority of situations.
So if you want to know where rights come from, just look at the people around you, that's where they come from.


Rights either are, or are not. There is no try...dammit...mixed my quotes again. You either have a right when you come to be, or you don't ever have a right. A right doesn't require anyone else be there at all. You have the right to Life. If no one else is there, do you no longer have a right to live?

You have the right to pursue happiness. If you are on a deserted island, do you lose the right to pursue your happiness?

If you are the only one in the woods, do you lose the right to choose for yourself (liberty)?

Natural rights, which is what the DoI was referring to are endowed by our Creator, be it God, a golden calf, a multi-armed humanoid, a fat-bellied lucky guy, or whatever you believe in. If you buy the inputs to a product and make that product, that product is yours. You have the ownership rights. If you are hired to take those inputs and make that product, you do not have the rights to that product unless it was stipulated in your contract that you would be compensated with that product.

If a person works on a road crew, is the road "his/hers?" No. It is not. You do not have any right over it as anyone else, unless you were the one who had it built and paid for the inputs.

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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 6:21:17 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
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Status: offline 		nope, an atheist's rights come from mom and dad, or the scientist that created the atheist in the lab, or do atheists just happen???

< Message edited by atursvcMaam -- 8/14/2012 6:22:29 AM >

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RE: Where do rights come from? - 8/14/2012 6:26:13 AM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So guns beat paper which beats the Rock of Ages.

So shouldn't the Rock of Ages beat guns?


That would work, but you have to die to get near the rock of ages. a hollow win at best.

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
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