RE: Where do rights come from?

RE: Where do rights come from? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

Owner59 -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:33:58 AM)
Well,fundies are generous enough(read arrogant elitists) to allow atheists,Pagans,Buddhists,Shintoists etc. their rights too....only through Jesus though...[;)] Thank god for that.[:D]

mnottertail -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:38:52 AM)
Actually, rights come at the end of a gun, all hyperbole and spiritual rhetoric aside. [/end thread]

Owner59 -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:44:52 AM)
So guns beat paper..... Odd....the bible is made of paper......

mnottertail -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:49:36 AM)
There is a famous rendering of John Brown holding a bible out like a shield while cradling a rifle, and he's fuckin cakked. Somewhere down the road some folk got some 'god given' rights.

SpaceSpank -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:52:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Rights either are, or are not. There is no try...dammit...mixed my quotes again. You either have a right when you come to be, or you don't ever have a right. A right doesn't require anyone else be there at all. You have the right to Life. If no one else is there, do you no longer have a right to live? You have the right to pursue happiness. If you are on a deserted island, do you lose the right to pursue your happiness? If you are the only one in the woods, do you lose the right to choose for yourself (liberty)? Natural rights, which is what the DoI was referring to are endowed by our Creator, be it God, a golden calf, a multi-armed humanoid, a fat-bellied lucky guy, or whatever you believe in. If you buy the inputs to a product and make that product, that product is yours. You have the ownership rights. If you are hired to take those inputs and make that product, you do not have the rights to that product unless it was stipulated in your contract that you would be compensated with that product. If a person works on a road crew, is the road "his/hers?" No. It is not. You do not have any right over it as anyone else, unless you were the one who had it built and paid for the inputs. If you are the last person on earth, you are correct, you have no rights... because there is no one there to grant or remove anything from you. There is no such thing as a natural right. It's a fallacy. Go to the middle of a 3rd world shithole where the lives of the people are owned by some despot dictator and tell him his people have an innate right to life. it simply does not exist. "We" in the first world countries have a right to life because we have defined it (or redefined in some cases) as being the case for our societies. You may want to think differently but the only rules in place are those which we set for ourselves. This includes rights and privileges. They are fundamentally the same thing, but they are granted and enforced differently. A right is something one is granted at birth by the collective agreement of the society they live in. We often project these onto others, even if it's not the case. "All are created equally" is a rather modern example that most first world countries embrace. We project this onto everyone, even if many other societies do not currently agree with it. Privileges, in the other hand, are often only earned or given at certain points in life. Like rights, they are granted to an individual by a societal entity, be it a governing body, religious institution, educational establishment, or even a community leader. As they are granted under provisional circumstances, they also tend to be easier to revoke.

MrBukani -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 7:53:02 AM)
Your rights are brought to you by the founding fathers. The dutchies[:D].

Musicmystery -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 7:59:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 So guns beat paper..... Odd....the bible is made of paper...... Too bad nobody explained that to Gandhi and the British Empire.

vincentML -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 9:41:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Actually, rights come at the end of a gun, all hyperbole and spiritual rhetoric aside. [/end thread] Tell that to Dr Martin Luther King Jr [8\|]

vincentML -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 9:43:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery So guns beat paper which beats the Rock of Ages. So shouldn't the Rock of Ages beat guns? That would work, but you have to die to get near the rock of ages. a hollow win at best. Jeez . . . thought you might be happy to return to your creator [8\|]

SternSkipper -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 9:48:00 AM)
quote: He already had the fundie vote......yawn...... I'm just sayin that he should use someone who will still be in office next year Ryan will be spending a lot of time at Shriner's Hospital in Boston... where they specialize in BURNS.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 4:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank If you are the last person on earth, you are correct, you have no rights... because there is no one there to grant or remove anything from you. At no point in time did I say "the last person on earth." So, according to your analysis, if I'm stranded on a deserted island, I can't make any choices for myself because there is no one there to grant me the right to choose? I no longer have a right to live? I can't go do whatever it is that makes me happy? quote: There is no such thing as a natural right. It's a fallacy. Go to the middle of a 3rd world shithole where the lives of the people are owned by some despot dictator and tell him his people have an innate right to life. it simply does not exist. Wrong, again. Why did we go into Libya? If rights are only whatever is granted by your government, how is it the UN has the right to decide that Libyans had a right to not get the shit blown out of them by the Libyan military? The DoI made the statement that these rights are endowed to us by our Creator (God, magic pixie dust, whatever it is you believe), and there are some that can not be taken away from us. This was written because King George, et. al. had been dicking with those very things that were determined to be unalienable rights. Without there being those transgressions, there was no reason for us to fight for our freedom. If it was simply that whatever government grants us is what is our right, what the King said goes, and, well, there well may not have been the Revolutionary War at that time. And, therein lies our "exceptionalism." We were the exceptions. We weren't rights granted by the government. We were rights of the people, protected by the government. We the People and the 13 States got together and wrote out a compact where we would essentially cede some of our individual authorities to the collective, the Federal Government. The Federal Government is a Union of the States, not any other entity. We can not gift a right to something that we don't have to give. quote: "We" in the first world countries have a right to life because we have defined it (or redefined in some cases) as being the case for our societies. You may want to think differently but the only rules in place are those which we set for ourselves. This includes rights and privileges. They are fundamentally the same thing, but they are granted and enforced differently. A right is something one is granted at birth by the collective agreement of the society they live in. We often project these onto others, even if it's not the case. "All are created equally" is a rather modern example that most first world countries embrace. We project this onto everyone, even if many other societies do not currently agree with it. Privileges, in the other hand, are often only earned or given at certain points in life. Like rights, they are granted to an individual by a societal entity, be it a governing body, religious institution, educational establishment, or even a community leader. As they are granted under provisional circumstances, they also tend to be easier to revoke. Privileges, unlike rights, are not inherent to someone's being. You don't get to drive simply because you are. You have to merit a license. Once you prove yourself worthy, you are given the privilege, provided you don't fuck up too many times. Ever thought about proving yourself worthy, at birth, for the privilege of living? This is exactly what the entire abortion argument is all about. When is a fetus actually a human? That is the point at which that mass of cells gets all the rights inherent in our being humans. If it's at birth, then abortion, at any time, is acceptable. If it's at fertilization, abortion, at any time, is murder. If someone gets pregnant due to rape or incest, aborting that fetus will be murder, if the abortion happens after that mass of cells is a human. It really is that simple. I don't care if your an atheist, or any other religion. The Founders, for the vast majority, were Deists and the term "Creator" was used because of that. They weren't saying the God of Christianity, Jesus, the god of Abraham, Mohammed, Buddha, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Jupiter, or whatever. It was, we were created by an undefined higher power, and that's where these rights came from. Now, if you want to make the argument that an atheist, because of his/her belief should not have any rights, since they were not created by a higher power, well, we can talk about that. Since you were born in America, and the entirety of our Government was started based on there being a Creator, you'll still have your rights protected.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 4:45:52 PM)
Our founding fathers were very smart cookies, indeed. They made it very clear that their intent in enumerating certain rights didn't mean that it was an all-inclusive list. There was an argument made (I'm going to have to go and look it up) by the Georgia delegation at the time that argued that by enumerating some of them, they would be setting a precedent whereby in the future, someone would claim that since the rights weren't spelled out, they didn't exist. Here's an example I like to give people: Show me, please, where the Constitution says anything about a right to privacy? Do we not have a right to privacy? I like to think that we have an inherent right to privacy. Peace and comfort, Michael

PeonForHer -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 5:03:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyrx I like to think that we have an inherent right to privacy. Unless this gets in the way of a government's anti-terrorist policies. The Founders did make an exception when it came to terrorism, didn't they?

SternSkipper -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 5:53:13 PM)
quote: Wrong, again. Why did we go into Libya? If rights are only whatever is granted by your government, how is it the UN has the right to decide that Libyans had a right to not get the shit blown out of them by the Libyan military? Scuri's Right and Libya is a pretty good and quite contemporary example ... thanks to his favorite President and NATO. The Libyan's had a natural right to self-determination and they TOOK that right bak from a dictator... with the help of Scuri's favorite President and NATO[:D]

SternSkipper -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 5:56:39 PM)
quote: I like to think that we have an inherent right to privacy. Hey... you know that feeble clown thing you're doing with your avatar looks like Larry David wearing Woody Allen's glasses, right?[8\|]

SpaceSpank -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:22:19 PM)
We went into libya BECAUSE "We" (the USA and others) decided to do it. Hence my point about saying "We" as in people, specifically the USA often enough, can impose those on others when "we" (being human beings, and not anything else) decide we want to. Those are not examples of anything you are arguing for. We have already societaly dictated our own rights some time ago, we simply pushed those off on others who may or may not have shared the same goal. And I used the "last man on earth" example because it's the natural progression of your example. And you on a desert island have any rights you can yourself enforce in the same way. Do you have the right to pursue happiness? No, because there IS no right. You can do whatever you want on that island that is within your means. The moment another person comes into the picture, your rights are now entirely up to which ones you can enforce or agree to. What if another person lands on your island and wants to kill you? And he's a hell of a lot more proficient at combat, weapons, stealth, and athletics than you are? Do you have the "right" to live? No, why? Because you can no longer enforce that, and he has all the power to remove any choice in the matter from you. And there is no societal influence, oversight, or penalty to prevent, protect, or punish. In normal every day life, that kind of thing still happens, but there's oversight, there's enforcement, and there's punishment. Of course some can work the systems in place and literally get away with murder, but it's not to be taken lightly because our society has deemed that to be something that has very few exceptions. The DoI was written by men in the language of the time and the people... so of course it referenced a deity. Hell, even if it was made now there is a good chance it would STILL reference a deity. That doesn't mean that any abstract entity had anything to do with the subject matter, just that they used it to speak to the common person of the time and reinforce what they were saying. They didn't "gift" rights. They simply put down the already commonly accepted ones that society had agreed upon. Those rights did not simply spring up out of nowhere at the creation of the USA. We're talking hundreds of years of political changes all across Europe and then the Americas to forge the cultural identity and societal norms that existed at the time the USA was founded. We did not spring forth from a vacuum.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 6:29:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Our rights are endowed by our creator. Claiming them, having government recognize and uphold them, typically requires some struggle. The Declaration is beautifully written, but note as well that the Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the People, but prohibits the government infringing upon them. To put that another way, a right is something the Government is not authorized to prohibit. What rights are depends greatly on what might lead me to put a bullet in your head. I am sorry if any think that over the top. See also, American Revolution, where a lot of people got shot to work this point into the law.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 8:12:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper quote: Wrong, again. Why did we go into Libya? If rights are only whatever is granted by your government, how is it the UN has the right to decide that Libyans had a right to not get the shit blown out of them by the Libyan military? Scuri's Right and Libya is a pretty good and quite contemporary example ... thanks to his favorite President and NATO. The Libyan's had a natural right to self-determination and they TOOK that right bak from a dictator... with the help of Scuri's favorite President and NATO[:D] BLASPHEMY!!! lmao The Libyans did not take the right back from the dictator. It was given to them by NATO (courtesy of my favorite US President that is currently serving [8D]). If Governments are "instituted among men" to secure the unalienable rights, "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." When the current incarnation of a government "becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government." Now, did the Libyans do as the colonies did? No idea. Did they "suffer a long train of abuses?" I can't say yes, but I'm assuming they did. Despots and dictators tend to do things like that. Did they repeatedly request relief of the tyrannical actions via set legitimate means? I can't say they did. I can't say they didn't. I can't even say whether or not there was even a set legitimate way to protest for redress of grievances. Did the Libyans draft their own DoI? Now, we get into the fun stuff. If it was entirely in keeping with our DoI to go into Libya and wage an air war on the side of the insurrection (good or bad, it is what it was), how is it not in keeping with our DoI to do the same in Syria? Or, why didn't we go into Iran when they started to detain and kill the protesters after Achmadinejad's contested election? Why haven't we gone into Darfur? Sure, we have blue hats there, but why didn't we send in the blue hats to Libya? Remember, we were the exception. We did the hard work of coming together and stand up for our rights. After an extended time frame, with the Crown continuing to pile on more and more "abuses," we said "enough" and secured our rights. "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes."

Real0ne -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 8:18:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 So guns beat paper..... Odd....the bible is made of paper...... yeh armies and police shoot people with bibles

DesideriScuri -> RE: Where do rights come from? (8/14/2012 8:26:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank We went into libya BECAUSE "We" (the USA and others) decided to do it. Hence my point about saying "We" as in people, specifically the USA often enough, can impose those on others when "we" (being human beings, and not anything else) decide we want to. Those are not examples of anything you are arguing for. We have already societaly dictated our own rights some time ago, we simply pushed those off on others who may or may not have shared the same goal. And I used the "last man on earth" example because it's the natural progression of your example. And you on a desert island have any rights you can yourself enforce in the same way. Do you have the right to pursue happiness? No, because there IS no right. You can do whatever you want on that island that is within your means. The moment another person comes into the picture, your rights are now entirely up to which ones you can enforce or agree to. What if another person lands on your island and wants to kill you? And he's a hell of a lot more proficient at combat, weapons, stealth, and athletics than you are? Do you have the "right" to live? No, why? Because you can no longer enforce that, and he has all the power to remove any choice in the matter from you. And there is no societal influence, oversight, or penalty to prevent, protect, or punish. If there are no rights inherent in being human, we have no need for government to protect any right because there are none. Our entire system of law depends on there being rights. Without the existence of rights, we have no need of a judicial system, either. Everything, then, becomes a privilege. And, no, they are not the same. Similar? Yes. The same? Not hardly. Privileges are granted. Rights are. quote: In normal every day life, that kind of thing still happens, but there's oversight, there's enforcement, and there's punishment. Of course some can work the systems in place and literally get away with murder, but it's not to be taken lightly because our society has deemed that to be something that has very few exceptions. The DoI was written by men in the language of the time and the people... so of course it referenced a deity. Hell, even if it was made now there is a good chance it would STILL reference a deity. That doesn't mean that any abstract entity had anything to do with the subject matter, just that they used it to speak to the common person of the time and reinforce what they were saying. They didn't "gift" rights. They simply put down the already commonly accepted ones that society had agreed upon. Those rights did not simply spring up out of nowhere at the creation of the USA. We're talking hundreds of years of political changes all across Europe and then the Americas to forge the cultural identity and societal norms that existed at the time the USA was founded. We did not spring forth from a vacuum. Commonly accepted rights? Could King George do whatever he wanted? Monarchs were supreme. Monarchs decreed what privileges you had and could grant them or take them away at any time. The grantor of a privilege has the authority, too, to take that privilege away. Get your rights from government and you rely on government to not take them back from you. You are quite mislead in your understanding of the very foundation of the USA.

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875