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Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 11:52:17 AM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Okay, forgive me in advance, since I'm sure this has been hashed in the past. But, that's the past. And, necro-ing old threads ain't cool...so here goes.

Off and on, there's talk of "inclusiveness" and/or acceptance/tolerance in the BDSM community. I take this to mean that it's hard enough with vanilla society not accepting non-conformity, so that us "weirdos" should stick together as a sort of community, and provide support to each other. This seems to be a natural phenomena for "outcast" groups.

What boggles my mind is the reaction by some to this. I.e., they feel the need to say hell no, we're not inclusive. Then they give absurd examples of why they aren't inclusive. E.g., rapists, child molesters, or just people doing crazy dangerous or unhealthy shit.

For discussion...

Don't you think it's obvious that inclusiveness doesn't include these absurdly obvious things that clearly shouldn't be tolerated?

What does inclusiveness mean to you?

Other, open ended...

Thanks.




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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 11:56:23 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I don't believe I am in a community, lifestyle, group or outcast by society.

I don't need to feel inclusive; I only need to live my life according to what I believe and function within society in a way that is successful to me and those I care about.

As far as criminal behavior like rapists or child molesters, I don't include them in my view of the kink world. As for people who do dangerous things, that is their business and not mine to criticize, unless of course, they ask my opinion, as they often do on the message boards.

(in reply to Karmastic)
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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 11:59:07 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		like sexyred, I don't feel like I'm part of some kind of community or lifestyle. We just live our lives the same as everyone else does on the planet. Just because we're into M/s does not mean we accept everyone else who does it or feels they are "special".

Bdsm does not make you special or unique or different or even all accepting. People judge. Get used to it.


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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:02:18 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		INCLUSIVE to me, means that folks who are differently kinked (within reason - no children/animals/elderly/mentally diminished) than I am should NOT be excluded. Neither should folks who are differently sexually indentifed than I am. Nor should those that want to be acknowledged in their desire to legally recognize their life partnersl. Nobody whose life choices (other than the aboved mentioned "no children/animals/elderly/mentally diminished-and I am sure there are others I haven't listed because I am sleepy)should be excluded.

IMNSHO.

(I may have to edit this later. I ams;eepy and have a cat asleep acrossmy arms)

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:03:53 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		My own personal opinion is that it's entirely a myth. Most oppressed sub-cultures end up circling the wagons and donning uniforms to make the battle lines stand out. My assessment of the BDSM sub-culture is no different. I actually think there is way LESS acceptance here than elsewhere. If you trot out the party line then you're accepted. If you deviate by even one iota... *poof*.

Carol notes this about lesbians back in the day. For instance, she had WAY more acceptance from her vanilla friends when she went lesbian than from her lesbian friends when she went back to straight.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:18:31 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I don't believe I am in a community, lifestyle, group or outcast by society.

I don't need to feel inclusive; I only need to live my life according to what I believe and function within society in a way that is successful to me and those I care about.

As far as criminal behavior like rapists or child molesters, I don't include them in my view of the kink world. As for people who do dangerous things, that is their business and not mine to criticize, unless of course, they ask my opinion, as they often do on the message boards.


I agree with one exception. When someone engages in dangerous things in a way that causes others to think it's standard protocol. I think if you are out in the community and especially if you present yourself as an expert, you should seriously think about the image you're presenting to those that don't know better.

As for inclusiveness: It does not mean that I have to accept someone that behaves like an asshat simply because someone is kinky, M/s, D/s, BDSM, etc.

And for the last part: For something that is "absurdly obvious" there sure are a lot of profiles on the other side that reference K9 and breeding. Not to mention that I can guarantee that pretty much every female submissive that has a daughter has had some asshole ask about that daughter in an inappropriate manner. There's a profile on the other side that brags that he was convicted of rape.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 8/14/2012 1:11:47 PM >

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:33:06 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic


Off and on, there's talk of "inclusiveness" and/or acceptance/tolerance in the BDSM community. I take this to mean that it's hard enough with vanilla society not accepting non-conformity, so that us "weirdos" should stick together as a sort of community, and provide support to each other. This seems to be a natural phenomena for "outcast" groups.


Stick together.. no. Learn from one another regardless of orientation? Sure.. why not? I'm not so high and mighty to think I can't learn a thing or three from just about anyone and I'm an opened-minded sort of gal. That said, time is precious in being both finite and limited and more so because none of us know for sure how much of it we're going to get so I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time sifting through sand looking for gems if they aren't fairly consistent in converse with another given humanoid.

quote:

What boggles my mind is the reaction by some to this. I.e., they feel the need to say hell no, we're not inclusive. Then they give absurd examples of why they aren't inclusive. E.g., rapists, child molesters, or just people doing crazy dangerous or unhealthy shit.


Why do you find those examples absurd .. these things permeate our Earth. I think it's important to acknowledge that 'no', those things are not acceptable in society as a whole or in any other community, social grouping or sub-culture. Without that, silence might be seen as to condone rather than condemn those things. The lessor of the evils here is to speak out then move on to the substance of a given thread on the subject.

quote:

For discussion...

Don't you think it's obvious that inclusiveness doesn't include these absurdly obvious things that clearly shouldn't be tolerated?


Obvious to who? Rational, insightful people who first dip toes into waters which can quickly become turbulant? Rational and insightful often falls to the wayside in the midst of sub frenzy, chest thumping, enthusiam and eagerness to belong/to be accepted. What is obvious to someone who wants nothing more than to wear a blindfold and believes that dark and titilating is the same as deadly and dangerous. No, I don't think it's obvious because so often we see what we desire to see and fail to see the reality. Talk is cheap and with Internet connections coming in unlimited at $9.95 a month, I don't see a problem with taking a moment and speaking out. Better safe than sorry and even that's iffy.


quote:

What does inclusiveness mean to you?


When used under the BDSM umbrella .. pan-sexual. Exclusive to me would be groups geared towards a singular dynamic or, perhaps orientation as in a submissives only group (there is one on Fet I believe that is strictly female submissive.. so, something along those lines would be exclusive).

Rapists, molesters and asshats.. yes, they are excluded and once it is made clear they are excluded, moving on is appropriate and not much more needs to be done but to watch if someone is of the mind to do so.





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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:48:53 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		I'll refer to "the community" because the umbrella concept as reference is recognizable.

Beyond that, I don't see myself fitting into any social grouping on a large scale, for anything.

I will say that inclusively, I accept people as a whole, fetishism or not. Half my friends are in "the community" and half are not. I don't embrace someone because they like D/g, or spanking, or any other category one might derive from sexual fetishism; I'd still see them as a person, first. After all, nice people can be vanilla, and jerks can be in "the community".

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 12:53:12 PM   
subbingincalif


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

Okay, forgive me in advance, since I'm sure this has been hashed in the past. But, that's the past. And, necro-ing old threads ain't cool...so here goes.

Off and on, there's talk of "inclusiveness" and/or acceptance/tolerance in the BDSM community. I take this to mean that it's hard enough with vanilla society not accepting non-conformity, so that us "weirdos" should stick together as a sort of community, and provide support to each other. This seems to be a natural phenomena for "outcast" groups.

What boggles my mind is the reaction by some to this. I.e., they feel the need to say hell no, we're not inclusive. Then they give absurd examples of why they aren't inclusive. E.g., rapists, child molesters, or just people doing crazy dangerous or unhealthy shit.

For discussion...

Don't you think it's obvious that inclusiveness doesn't include these absurdly obvious things that clearly shouldn't be tolerated?

What does inclusiveness mean to you?

Other, open ended...

Thanks.





Like others here, I don't feel that I am part of some BDSM community that is separate or more important than the community at large. I don't feel like an outcast nor do I feel in need of support from some BDSM community.

If someone puts forward an idea, I'll disagree or agree depending on what I think of it. I don't feel any need to "support" ideas I disagree with based on some general notion of needing to support BDSM.

Also, I disagree with this black-and-white notion of one "vanilla" society and one "BDSM" society. Sexuality is a spectrum.

So, I guess my take is, I don't care about inclusiveness. I care about individuals. I like them or I don't. I find them weirdos or not. I want to talk to them or have no interest in them. The fact that someone happens to practice some aspects of BDSM won't inherently affect what I think about them one way or another.

(in reply to Karmastic)
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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:09:31 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbingincalif


Like others here, I don't feel that I am part of some BDSM community that is separate or more important than the community at large. I don't feel like an outcast nor do I feel in need of support from some BDSM community.

If someone puts forward an idea, I'll disagree or agree depending on what I think of it. I don't feel any need to "support" ideas I disagree with based on some general notion of needing to support BDSM.

Also, I disagree with this black-and-white notion of one "vanilla" society and one "BDSM" society. Sexuality is a spectrum.

So, I guess my take is, I don't care about inclusiveness. I care about individuals. I like them or I don't. I find them weirdos or not. I want to talk to them or have no interest in them.


This

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:34:58 PM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Trying to avoid extremes here, and answer the OP at the same time.

I'm not involved in "the community". That said, there are a number of people in this online gathering whom I respect. There are others I don't give the time of day to. So I guess I'm not inclusive.

Similarly, I have no interest in sadism or masochism. That doesn't mean that I think either are right OR wrong: it's just not my bag. I'l defend the rights of a masochist to declare their opinion. I won't agree with it for the sake of "the community". That's a free speech issue not a bdsm issue.

Nothing is "obvious": as evinced in other threads, people do stupid things sometimes, so... where DO you draw the exclusion lines? If the age of consent is 18 in, say, Idaho (I don't know the right numbers, I'm making this up as an example) and 21 in North Carolina, do we "include" a 20 year old from NC?

So I guess I'm not an inclusivist either. Not rabid; not shouting "hell, no....". If two (or more) folk agree a different path then good luck! The wine is making me loquacious and probably incoherent, so there I shall stop, not include you, and drink the rest myself. Be well.

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:37:51 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		GREAT ANSWERS! your answers and approach are tops in my book, even though i disagree on the conclusions. i.e., hearing the obvious (evil shit sure does exist, and we don't condone it) gets tiresome and is distracting and derailing when injected into an otherwise healthy thread that isn't really focused on that aspect (that i'm calling obvious).

still, i salute your answers!


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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:45:02 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbingincalif

Like others here, I don't feel that I am part of some BDSM community that is separate or more important than the community at large. I don't feel like an outcast nor do I feel in need of support from some BDSM community.

i guess i'm speaking in a general sense. i'm not one to rah rah either.

If someone puts forward an idea, I'll disagree or agree depending on what I think of it. I don't feel any need to "support" ideas I disagree with based on some general notion of needing to support BDSM.

true dat, i'm with ya. i don't mean being a phony and falsely agreeing for some general sense of supporting others; although, i HAVE seen that done quite often here, but more when there's a gang bang happening.

Also, I disagree with this black-and-white notion of one "vanilla" society and one "BDSM" society. Sexuality is a spectrum.

good point, agree

So, I guess my take is, I don't care about inclusiveness. I care about individuals. I like them or I don't. I find them weirdos or not. I want to talk to them or have no interest in them. The fact that someone happens to practice some aspects of BDSM won't inherently affect what I think about them one way or another.

in a general sense, i care about both (inclusiveness, and individuals), and share sentiments about taking each as individual to like or not. but I'll differ in that i do feel a certain 'kinship' (lack of a better word) with others who share this particular aspect in their lives.



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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:46:14 PM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Hmmm, don't myself see any derailing.

The topic is inclusiveness - should we be? Most of us (and you, OP) have actually said, in one form or another, "No, we're not inclusive, for I would exclude [x]". If that ISN'T the focus, then the only other focus I can see is "should I include [y] BECAUSE [y] IS PART OF BDSM". Again, no.

I reserve the right to be wrong.

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 1:56:25 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

Hmmm, don't myself see any derailing.

The topic is inclusiveness - should we be? Most of us (and you, OP) have actually said, in one form or another, "No, we're not inclusive, for I would exclude [x]". If that ISN'T the focus, then the only other focus I can see is "should I include [y] BECAUSE [y] IS PART OF BDSM". Again, no.

I reserve the right to be wrong.

sorry i mislead you...when i referenced derailing threads, i didn't mean this one. this thread has been great, discussion right on topic, no derailments. the reference was to other threads that ARE derailed because of what i'm calling the obvious evil things that don't need to be explicitly excluded from BDSM to say one is inclusive.

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 2:05:53 PM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		No worries....back on track then....

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 2:23:59 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
Off and on, there's talk of "inclusiveness" and/or acceptance/tolerance in the BDSM community.
I take this to mean that it's hard enough with vanilla society not accepting non-conformity, so that us "weirdos"
should stick together as a sort of community, and provide support to each other.

I'm a member of this website because I like to get my freak on, in and outside of the bedroom, not because
I'm feeling shunned by society and needing a safe harbor. I come here because this is the place where many
of the people share the same thoughts and ideas that I do, so it's more a choice of logic than need.

I don't feel any obligation to support someone elses idea simply because they are kinky, but I do support
their right to voice it. I think of this more as a secluded place to discuss BDSM than a place of inclusion.

< Message edited by poise -- 8/14/2012 2:25:03 PM >

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 2:30:13 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Karmastic, I will explain what I believe the word "inclusiveness" means to me if you tell me if you think a message board is really part of the bdsm "community"

I ask because I have been part of a/the/a few bdsm communitys over the last few decades and let me tell you hon more than a few of them were and still are very inclusive. They don't believe at all that people should just be allowed to be part of the group without first proving they have a reason to be there. Now don't get me wrong I have seen all of the threads and comments suggesting that people be nicer when it comes to new folks posting and I agree at times we could all stand a spoon full of sugar but....but...but....really (In my opinion) if my son can figure out how to run a search on any given web page to see if he can find something before he starts complaining to the people that run the site(or worse the posters who have no control over anything) so can every other adult that uses the net. And if my son can figure out that no matter how hard he trys he will never fit into every group, gang, gathering, "community", etc. I would think every other adult could figure that out too. After all my son is 15 how old does a person have to get before they figure out that no we are not all just going to get along?

*Said while smiling and typed with sunshine and brightness...I swear*

p.s As for society. It can shun me all it wants. I bring more and more people over to the darkside each day so I'm not worried.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 8/14/2012 2:32:33 PM >

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RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 2:38:26 PM   
subbingincalif


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: subbingincalif

Like others here, I don't feel that I am part of some BDSM community that is separate or more important than the community at large. I don't feel like an outcast nor do I feel in need of support from some BDSM community.

i guess i'm speaking in a general sense. i'm not one to rah rah either.


I don't know what you mean by "a general sense."

If someone puts forward an idea, I'll disagree or agree depending on what I think of it. I don't feel any need to "support" ideas I disagree with based on some general notion of needing to support BDSM.

true dat, i'm with ya. i don't mean being a phony and falsely agreeing for some general sense of supporting others; although, i HAVE seen that done quite often here, but more when there's a gang bang happening.


I'd go even deeper. Just because I engage in some forms of BDSM doesn't mean I have to be accepting of BDSM practices I dislike or find disgusting. I am quite comfortable drawing lines. If some people dislike the lines I draw, that's fine. But I am not a subscriber to the kneejerk "it's all good." I don't believe in the notion that it's the kinks against the vanillas.

Also, I disagree with this black-and-white notion of one "vanilla" society and one "BDSM" society. Sexuality is a spectrum.

good point, agree

So, I guess my take is, I don't care about inclusiveness. I care about individuals. I like them or I don't. I find them weirdos or not. I want to talk to them or have no interest in them. The fact that someone happens to practice some aspects of BDSM won't inherently affect what I think about them one way or another.

in a general sense, i care about both (inclusiveness, and individuals), and share sentiments about taking each as individual to like or not. but I'll differ in that i do feel a certain 'kinship' (lack of a better word) with others who share this particular aspect in their lives.


As I said before, the fact that someone practices some forms of BDSM will have no bearing on what I think about them, if I respect them or enjoy their company, so I wouldn't consider an interest in BDSM the basis for kinship






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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Inclusiveness re-done - 8/14/2012 2:42:14 PM   
subbingincalif


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: poise


I don't feel any obligation to support someone elses idea simply because they are kinky, but I do support
their right to voice it.



I support the right of anyone to voice any idea.

However, the part people often miss (not saying you) is I maintain my right to react to that idea in any way I want, including calling an idea idiotic or repulsive if I choose.


(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 20
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