Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (Full Version)

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Karnikula -> Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 1:51:29 PM)

Another topic fetched from Carolyn (I suppose it IS the Carolyn you know).

Situation:

Dom tells sub to do X.
Sub doesn't like doing X.
Sub does as told but is obviously unhappy about it.
You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it.

Do you decide not to order sub to do X, be disappointed and have your sub be unhappy about not being pleasing ? (lose-lose)

How do you fix this problem?

Tell your sub to ACT as if enjoying? (tie-tie)
Try to enjoy X without your sub enjoying it? (tie-tie)

Can there be a win-win situation?




kalikshama -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 1:56:57 PM)

<---- does not fake it.

To me, there's a big difference between "doing it for him" and being seriously unhappy about it. I've done lots of things I'd ordinarily be neutral about and enjoyed it because he enjoyed it. Hell, I enjoy picking up smelly socks in the context of a D/s relationship.

I was obviously unhappy about swing clubs, my ex didn't care; he's my ex.




angelikaJ -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:03:26 PM)

I think the question really is: How compatible are you two?

If [my] Master asks me to do X, then doing X would please me because I enjoy pleasing Him.

If liking something apart from that is important to you, then maybe your mutual likes aren't compatible enough.

So, I would drop the activity and maybe find things similar that she might enjoy.
(Rumor has it that discussion is good for figuring that stuff out [:)] )



littlewonder -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:09:55 PM)

Even though I may hate doing something he tells me to do, I actually enjoy it because it makes him happy...no matter how much I hate said order.

I don't fake anything.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:18:54 PM)

Your questions are difficult to answer, b/c they show you have not as yet developed much of an understanding for what a M/s or D/s relationship is actually *like.* Sorry, just had to get that out there.

Yeah, what they said. If he likes it I like it, unless it's a huge deal breaker, in which case we wouldn't be together in the first place.



LaTigresse -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:22:04 PM)

If I tell a slave to do something chances are I have a fairly good reason for doing so.

Whether or not the slave actually likes it is rather irrelevant.

Althooooooooough....... I MIGHT actually enjoy that they don't........because I am mean like that.

In fact, upon retrospect, the very fact that they don't like it A LOT......might be my 'good reason'!



topcat -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:23:12 PM)

In many cases, I am more pleased knowing that she is *not* enjoying it...

to some extent, in some activities. I mean, if she totally LOATHES it, to the extent that it's going to be an issue for her to do it, I am likely going to just drop it- do it myself, or get someone else in to do it.

I really don't expect to be able to force her to enjoy something, nor would I expect her to pretend to like it.

I am having a hard time figuring out what this question is really about.

For example, sodomy( such a lovely word, ain't it?)- I will use her ass as I like, as often as I like. If she doesn't enjoy it, yet submits to it- even reluctantly- I usually enjoy it more. But I want it, and I will have it, or she can go on her way rejoicing. I really can't think of something I'd expect her to pretend to enjoy. I could imagine a social situation where I'd expect her to 'not act miserable', even if she'd rather be squatting on a cattle prod- but that'd be for others ... comfort? ... not my own. I expect her to be transparent with ME, not the universe, and there's a good deal I expect any adult to be able to fake for social niceties.





poise -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:30:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
If I tell a slave to do something chances are I have a fairly good reason for doing so.

This is how things are in my relationship. He doesnt invent things to do for the simple sake of making me do things,
but because something needs to get done. My focus isn't on the task itself but on his need for me to do it.



JeffBC -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:41:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula
How do you fix this problem?

In such a situation I have three options available to me. Which one I choose will be highly situationally dependent. My goal is to optimize happiness in the marriage... not simply for me.

A) Modify the command
B) Tell her to suck it up.
C) Modify her reaction to the command so that it is no longer negative.

The little stuff goes into the "suck it up" category. The big stuff is either going to be (a) or (c). Both of us value harmony too much to just allow a serious bit of friction to be left alone.

Unlike some others, Carol is not always pleased with the commands I give her. In some cases, she's not pleased A LOT! Her desire to please me does not obviate her own reactions. Carol and I are not as compatible as some others on this thread. Some of the things I have her do are WAY outside of her comfort zone and default personality and even ethics/morality. So we need to be able to deal with that and still have happiness.



OsideGirl -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:45:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula


Dom tells sub to do X.
Sub doesn't like doing X.
Sub does as told but is obviously unhappy about it.
You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it.


I do things all day long that I don't like doing. It's part of life. IMO, if he tells me to do something and I act like a spoiled child, pouting and throwing a tantrum...then it's passive aggressive behavior, I'm attempting to manipulate him and not really submitting. If something truly makes me angry, we sit down and talk about like adults and work it out.

Submission is easy when it's something that you like or want to do. Real submission starts when you get to the things you don't like or don't want to do.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 2:53:15 PM)

These kinds of questions baffle me.

Are we talking about kinky things? Well, there are times when I want what I want. Will I ask for something that will foster resentment? No. I am very capable of nonsexual play, and I can make someone else do the awful stuff.

The rest of life? Well suck it up, no one's that unique of a snowflake. It's not like I'd force someone to...vote Republican or something.

Eta: I think I am rare in that I don't enjoy others' discomfiture. I appreciate stocism, and I adore his taking that extra bit for me, but enduring simply for my pleasure? Not usually fun.



Karnikula -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:07:42 PM)

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) What I'd like to happen most right now is for you to: Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.

EDIT: the part what the dom answers.



Whenready -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:10:43 PM)

You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it.

This is my sticking point. If she's faking it, goodbye. If she doesn't like it, sometimes it's to make her think about something. If it's a random "do [x] for me" then it's small beer. The why matters more than the what.

Edit: response to this section of OP, not LadyHibiscus (guess I hit FR)

If the "task" was only enjoyable if she enjoyed it, why would I pick something she didn't enjoy?



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:11:48 PM)

Okayyyy....I am going to refer you back to what Miss Chatte wrote.



SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:22:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.


If she's not yours yet, then you are not asking her to do something she does not want to do with this example, you are asking her to blatantly LIE to you about something that is a pretty damn big deal to most people in this lifestyle.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:30:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.



The Dom needs to modify their expectations.
The sub asked "what do you want me to do" and the Dom replied "this is what I want you to feel".

If he wants her to *do* something, he needs to tell her what to do "kneel, bow and say the following".
If he wants her to *feel* "relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable" then he needs to create that feeling in her, or direct her on how to create that feeling in herself.

The problem with your scenario isn't a conflict between "being pleasing" and "being transparent" but a conflict between the Dom's desires/expectations and reality.



JanahX -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:30:23 PM)

Who the fuck is Carolyn? And who are you addressing that you are indicating that knows her?

quote:

Do you decide not to order sub to do X, be disappointed and have your sub be unhappy about not being pleasing ? (lose-lose)


LMFAO - really? Someone is going to be disappointed because their s.o. doesnt like doing something? - and whats the alternative? Theyre supposed to fake it and act like they like it or something? And why would the sub be unhappy about not doing something they dont like doing?



Karnikula -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:32:14 PM)

No, the Dom in this scenario is just answering a question, not making a request. (actually I phrased that wrong, I'll fix that now)

Edit:

quote:

but a conflict between the Dom's desires/expectations and reality.


Do you not desire things that are not the reality?
Why are his EXPECATIONS unreal? Those are never mentioned in my example.

I see the problem to be about the SUBS expectations, the sub wanting to be pleasing wants to fulfill the doms desires but cannot as they are not compatible with reality and thus feels inadequate because of not being a pleasing sub.

Edit#2:

quote:

And why would the sub be unhappy about not doing something they dont like doing?

Because they want to submit and do everything their Doms asks of them and like it so their Dom is happy.



needlesandpins -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:41:08 PM)

i don't fake it for anyone. in my job i do things i don't like because it's my job. my whole life is full of things i don't like, but i have to put up with them. in a 'relationship' (and i use the term loosely) i'm not going to fake something. if i don't like it i ain't doing it. there are things that i could do that in themselves wouldn't turn me on, but if i know it's working for him then it works for me.

however, the crucial word for me is 'emotional' which says that it is more than just play. i'm not going to do anything that hurts me emotionally anymore just to suit someone else. faking it is a lie, and i hate lies, so why would i bother doing that. likewise, i hate being lied to most of all, so why would i put someone else in that position of having to lie to me? emotional upset breeds resentment in the end, why would i want that? also i've been in that position already with my ex. i won't be doing it again as it's too damaging for my self worth (which is not that great anyway, thus easily ripped to shreds)

the example you give has a simple solution; you wait until you know each other better so that you trust each other enough. if it's never going to happen with each other but matters that much to you then find someone else, or drop it.

needles



OsideGirl -> RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. (8/15/2012 3:58:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) What I'd like to happen most right now is for you to: Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.

EDIT: the part what the dom answers.


I was with my ex-Dom for 6 years. In those 6 years he indicated that he wished to collar me three times. Each time, I politely declined because I felt there were things in the relationship that weren't at that level yet. We sat down, discussed it and he understood my position and we continued on.



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