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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 12:58:24 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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quote:

I don't have a Master to turn to or look out for me.

It was the first spank/party/experience for the fellow who spanked me, & didn't yet know about protocol, aftercare, etc., or how to handle this kind of situation. None of it was his fault, nor within the realm of his experience or knowledge yet.


This has zilch to do with being your Master or knowing protocol or aftercare.
This has to do with him being a man.
This has to do with someone hitting you who did not have permission.
Personally if I was playing with someone and this happened and he did not stand up for me as a man should do, I would see him as a weak person in general, let alone a future Dom/Master or even a top.


_____________________________

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Everything has changed

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:02:42 PM   
JeffBC


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Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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I agree (again, big surprise) with LW. I don't need any protocol to know that you don't hit someone without permission. I don't need any protocol to see that something turned out poorly and there's some aftercare that needs to be done. I don't need any particular status as hers or anyone else's master to feel like I have at least some obligation to step up... especially in this case where DS knew the sub in question. I'd be a LOT more circumspect with some strange sub (think about the "don't touch" thread).

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:04:25 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

My aftercare in this situation would be one of asking Master if I could have a few choice words with the guy and then maybe a kick in the balls to let him know how it feels.

Why didn't the guy who was spanking you, your play partner, approach the guy and kick his ass in a dark alley?????




Because:

I don't have a Master to turn to or look out for me.

It was the first spank/party/experience for the fellow who spanked me, & didn't yet know about protocol, aftercare, etc., or how to handle this kind of situation. None of it was his fault, nor within the realm of his experience or knowledge yet.

Most folks, when in threatening/traumatic situations go into the Fight or Flight Response. I go into the Freeze response, which makes it hard to deal with such things in a timely manner. I was in no good headspace to deal with it at the time. I'm only now, 3 days later, just beginning to able to tap into any anger over it. Takes me a long time to understand and process this sort of stuff. Wish it didn't, but it does.


Some people are wired for the 3rd F(reeze). I can be that way.
I know I had an early experience almost 5 years ago in this D/s stuff when I was at the end of a date and he gripped my nipples so hard it left bruises.
Was it okay?
No.
Did I say anything right away?
No.
This was all brand new to me and I spent awhile second guessing myself.
It took me awhile to address it with him and then our back and forth discussion made it clear that we were not suited for each other.

I am glad Steven was there.

Your anger is valid; I hope you know that.

_____________________________

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(as deemed by He who owns me)

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:05:39 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

I think comfort and a hug would do. I mean you have to keep it in perspective - they may be shook up, but its not like some huge tragedy or anything.


Perspective is in the eye of the individual beholder, not the collective, and what may not be a huge tragedy for you may be enough to create a huge setback for another. As it is, I'm having serious second thoughts about future play, private and public. I had hoped to use this tool as a therapeutic aid in healing the darkness, not contributing to it.

And you never know just how fine a line one may walking these days, and what might be enough to push them over the edge. Had I felt there were more posters here skilled in the art of support and compassion, I would have been sharing more of what's not working right in my life right now, where its put me head and heart-wise, and how it makes me feel like not being on the planet anymore. But because of the callous and vindictive nature of some, I do not feel it is my best interest to expose my emotional underbelly, and risk attack and humiliation when at my most frightened, weakest and vulnerable state.

< Message edited by Duskypearls -- 8/21/2012 1:07:28 PM >

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:07:58 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I am so sorry this happened to you, Dusky. I wish I'd been there... though of course it's all aftermath right now. ~~hugs~~

Steven? Ya listening? I hope that you'll step up and address this with the organizers of the party, and the persons involved. If you haven't already, of course.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:15:06 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Steven, to answer your original question, I would go with whatever the bottom asks to have. In this case, you were familiar with the person (Dusky) and you were aware of what kind of aftercare works for her.

Is this the same spanking group where there was an issue before that you had brought up for discussion? I have to admit, I'd be a little leery of any kink party where any person can just invite themselves into the scene and take their own liberties.



1. I have played with Dusky a few times, but haven't really provided her with much aftercare. And while I am familiar with general aftercare, which is bringing someone from subspace or a well-beaten, glowing state back to reality, I do not know how to bring someone out of a bad headspace. That's why I posted.

2. It's not exactly the same group. The main group (Scarlet Moons) is a regular monthly party, with open invitations except for a few who've been barred. The group Saturday night was an invitation-only bunch made up of Scarlet Moons attendees.

At Scarlet Moons, there is a very unique protocol in which attendees frequently kibitz play scenes. I've even casually swatted the bottoms of a spankee or two there as they stood around. It's VERY informal.

------------------------
Back to the topic at hand, and a little more explanation. Dusky was being topped by more than one person. As she said, her spanker was new and was spanking her softly with a very subdued paddle. Another top was, if memory serves, using sensation play. I had earlier been tickling her foot. In short, having a person jump into the scene was not as verboten as in a normal dungeon with normal protocol. Had he continued the same rhythm of soft spanking and sensation play, there would have been no issue.



_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:15:32 PM   
LadyPact


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I mostly agree with littlewonder here, but I don't think it only has to do with being a man. Most of the female tops that I know, Myself included, probably would have torn the guy a new asshole.

Dusky, I am sorry this happened to you. In all sincerity, I do hope that you know that shouldn't have happened and it's really not appropriate.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:29:24 PM   
lizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

First off, a disclaimer so people don't get horrified. This occurred at a play party where everyone knew each other, and the typical protocol about not interfering in others' scenes doesn't hold, especially bantering about others' play. The play at the party was pretty light and consisted almost entirely of spanking and impact play.

With that said, I was at a private play party Saturday. A woman was getting a sensual spanking when a cheerful idiot decided to give her a couple of hard whacks with a strap, breaking up her headspace. She safeworded and the scene ended. She was disoriented by the sudden change, and I did the best I could. I put my arm around her and tried to "contact" her with my voice.

So my question is, I know what aftercare to use after a proper scene. What's recommended for a broken scene, with a bottom who needs comfort? Touch, voice, anything else?


Steven, the few times I have had a bad experience what has worked for me is to be talked to, have things explained, as you described it....being contacted with your voice. If I know you, some light touching/stroking on my hand or arm perhaps, maybe even my hair, but a soothing presence is most important to me with someone talking to me. Otherwise I tend to dwell on what happened that didn't go well, and stay in that moment instead of moving on into finding my composure again. I'm a logical person, I like being approached through logic. It settles me down more quickly than anything else. For me, having someone explain things is also validating.

For instance, I reacted really badly to my Dom calling me a bad girl once, I mean - who knew it would put me into tears. I wasn't actually being bad at the time, we were just doing our usual thing in the bedroom, he had no idea at the time how much stock I put into being "good", so didn't know being called bad would devastate me. I didn't either. But he sat me down, touched me softly, talked to me and brought me out of the shell I had myself in and that approach worked out well. It all sounds rather dramatic and silly, it's embarrassing, but I really shut down and felt like crawling into the ground at what I perceived was 'wrong' on my part. So the aftercare was welcome and enabled us to move on that night into the normal state of how things usually are for us.

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:41:43 PM   
lizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Because:

I don't have a Master to turn to or look out for me.

It was the first spank/party/experience for the fellow who spanked me, & didn't yet know about protocol, aftercare, etc., or how to handle this kind of situation. None of it was his fault, nor within the realm of his experience or knowledge yet.

Most folks, when in threatening/traumatic situations go into the Fight or Flight Response. I go into the Freeze response, which makes it hard to deal with such things in a timely manner. I was in no good headspace to deal with it at the time. I'm only now, 3 days later, just beginning to able to tap into any anger over it. Takes me a long time to understand and process this sort of stuff. Wish it didn't, but it does.


Sweetie, in a perfect world you wouldn't feel you needed someone else to stand up for you, it would have been ok for you to do it for yourself. The you that wasn't silenced from your past trauma would have reacted to having your personal space violated and let the guy know that he was a dumbass. I understand the freezing thing, I do it at times too and I haven't had your life issues to deal with. It's understandable to me that with circumstances at the party you held back and weren't sure enough of yourself to pursue a confrontation. What myself and others want you to know is that you are justified in feeling violated and even though the moment has passed, perhaps measures should be taken so that this man is contacted.

I can certainly understand you feeling apprehensive at future BDSM contact private or public. May I suggest if you decide to do another public get together, that someone is appointed to you to be your protector for the night so that you feel safe and comfortable? It's a thought. I'd hate for this setback to cause you permanent emotional harm, I actually think you were on to something with trying things out with the party and all. Maybe it's still a good idea that can be tweaked...?

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 1:49:46 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

First off, a disclaimer so people don't get horrified. This occurred at a play party where everyone knew each other, and the typical protocol about not interfering in others' scenes doesn't hold, especially bantering about others' play. The play at the party was pretty light and consisted almost entirely of spanking and impact play.

With that said, I was at a private play party Saturday. A woman was getting a sensual spanking when a cheerful idiot decided to give her a couple of hard whacks with a strap, breaking up her headspace. She safeworded and the scene ended. She was disoriented by the sudden change, and I did the best I could. I put my arm around her and tried to "contact" her with my voice.

So my question is, I know what aftercare to use after a proper scene. What's recommended for a broken scene, with a bottom who needs comfort? Touch, voice, anything else?


I expect you would do the right thing regardless. You seem to have an innate understanding of situations.

Here in Korea, the older women seem to think it's perfectly ok to touch me. They touch my ass and my breasts. This happens at least once or twice a month. There is no malicious in it, but it still squicks me. I recognize it as a cultural difference because it is such a common occurrence (one of my friends who is bald has a similar experience - they touch his bald head). One day I was with Diablo, my trainer, and while he was still respectful to the woman, he explained in no uncertain terms that she should keep her hands off me. That knight in shining armor experience really solidified my trust in him.

With that in mind, I would say that YOU confronting him could be a source of WIN as well.

However, again, I trust that you did the exact right thing.

Best,
sunshine

_____________________________

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 2:01:43 PM   
Duskypearls


Posts: 3561
Joined: 8/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Because:

I don't have a Master to turn to or look out for me.

It was the first spank/party/experience for the fellow who spanked me, & didn't yet know about protocol, aftercare, etc., or how to handle this kind of situation. None of it was his fault, nor within the realm of his experience or knowledge yet.

Most folks, when in threatening/traumatic situations go into the Fight or Flight Response. I go into the Freeze response, which makes it hard to deal with such things in a timely manner. I was in no good headspace to deal with it at the time. I'm only now, 3 days later, just beginning to able to tap into any anger over it. Takes me a long time to understand and process this sort of stuff. Wish it didn't, but it does.


Sweetie, in a perfect world you wouldn't feel you needed someone else to stand up for you, it would have been ok for you to do it for yourself. The you that wasn't silenced from your past trauma would have reacted to having your personal space violated and let the guy know that he was a dumbass. I understand the freezing thing, I do it at times too and I haven't had your life issues to deal with. It's understandable to me that with circumstances at the party you held back and weren't sure enough of yourself to pursue a confrontation. What myself and others want you to know is that you are justified in feeling violated and even though the moment has passed, perhaps measures should be taken so that this man is contacted.

I can certainly understand you feeling apprehensive at future BDSM contact private or public. May I suggest if you decide to do another public get together, that someone is appointed to you to be your protector for the night so that you feel safe and comfortable? It's a thought. I'd hate for this setback to cause you permanent emotional harm, I actually think you were on to something with trying things out with the party and all. Maybe it's still a good idea that can be tweaked...?


It is so hard to undo a lifetime of being wired to quietly submit and endure what others say/do to me for fear of a greater and worse retaliation. I understand it is neither healthy nor appropriate to respond by undermining my own pain and suffering, and appeasing the one who caused it, in hopes of getting out alive that I may live to fight another day (not that I'm a fighter). It happens all so quickly; the shutdown, at warp speed, and so unconsciously, you don't even know you're in its grips.

I absolutely loathe myself for it, no matter how many times my therapist commends me for it, saying it was an effective way for me to survive what I did. You can be sure I know it does not serve me well now, and in fact, is contributing to much of my present suffering.

I beg you all, please do not be harsh on the fellow who was learning to spank me just before it happened. Do not blame him for not knowing what he did not know. It is not his fault.

Thanks for your gentle words, Lizi. They mean much.

< Message edited by Duskypearls -- 8/21/2012 2:02:32 PM >

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 2:24:09 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
Sweetie, in a perfect world you wouldn't feel you needed someone else to stand up for you, it would have been ok for you to do it for yourself. The you that wasn't silenced from your past trauma would have reacted to having your personal space violated and let the guy know that he was a dumbass.

Carol, most likely, also would not have confronted and she has no prior trauma. She simply would've coped with what happened and never returned to that play group and possibly left BDSM as a whole.

Dusky Said: I beg you all, please do not be harsh on the fellow who was learning to spank me just before it happened. Do not blame him for not knowing what he did not know. It is not his fault.
Well, you're the "victim" in this one and you were there whereas I was not. So I'll take that at face value no worries.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 2:29:49 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
Sweetie, in a perfect world you wouldn't feel you needed someone else to stand up for you, it would have been ok for you to do it for yourself. The you that wasn't silenced from your past trauma would have reacted to having your personal space violated and let the guy know that he was a dumbass.

Carol, most likely, also would not have confronted and she has no prior trauma. She simply would've coped with what happened and never returned to that play group and possibly left BDSM as a whole.

Dusky Said: I beg you all, please do not be harsh on the fellow who was learning to spank me just before it happened. Do not blame him for not knowing what he did not know. It is not his fault.
Well, you're the "victim" in this one and you were there whereas I was not. So I'll take that at face value no worries.


I do not care to consider myself "The Victim." Knocked off my center, perhaps, however wobbly that may be these days, but hopefully not the victim. Knock knock, s**t happens. We all know that.

Thank you for your kindness, though.

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 2:58:19 PM   
areallivehuman


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Best thing you can do, shrug it off, move forward. And the next time you see this guy at an event, walk right up and tell him," I don't like you, don't ever touch me again under any circumstances." Then turn and walk away.

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 3:25:53 PM   
LadyPact


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Thank you, Steven, for trying to clear up the players for Me. I think I might still be confused.

If this was the new guy, it might be worthwhile to have a sit down with him and explain just exact what he did wrong. I'm not so sure I go with the ignorance is an excuse bit. If he's not aware, maybe that's not the person to choose to play with. I'm not really sure if there is choice involved if anybody attending the party can just walk up and spank any bottom that they see.

Dusky, you may also want to consider if this is the type of party (very low protocol/open invitation) that you want to attend. I mean no offense to the host or the other participants, but it's possible that you might do better at different types of venues.

Edited for typo.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 8/21/2012 3:26:34 PM >


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 3:44:56 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thank you, Steven, for trying to clear up the players for Me. I think I might still be confused.

If this was the new guy, it might be worthwhile to have a sit down with him and explain just exact what he did wrong. I'm not so sure I go with the ignorance is an excuse bit. If he's not aware, maybe that's not the person to choose to play with. I'm not really sure if there is choice involved if anybody attending the party can just walk up and spank any bottom that they see.




Nope. Her "escort" was new. The guy who whacked her was experienced. Part of her problem was that her escort was new, and the woman who was instructing him was new to topping, and they both froze. The fellow who whacked her froze as well, likely realizing that any touching he provided could go bad at that point. I basically broke into the scene to comfort her, and was shooting from the hip and wishing I knew more. I expect that that kind of training is provided to DMs.

LadyPact, maybe I should use algebraic symbols for each participant?

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 3:54:27 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thank you, Steven, for trying to clear up the players for Me. I think I might still be confused.

If this was the new guy, it might be worthwhile to have a sit down with him and explain just exact what he did wrong. I'm not so sure I go with the ignorance is an excuse bit. If he's not aware, maybe that's not the person to choose to play with. I'm not really sure if there is choice involved if anybody attending the party can just walk up and spank any bottom that they see.

Dusky, you may also want to consider if this is the type of party (very low protocol/open invitation) that you want to attend. I mean no offense to the host or the other participants, but it's possible that you might do better at different types of venues.

Edited for typo.



LadyP, my friend I brought to the party, who had no previous experience/knowledge, etc., and had just finished doing a great first spank job on me, while being tutored by the host. Steven had been tickling my feet (yummy), and another gal was teasing/tickling my ear (again, yummy). All very easy, appropriate, and balanced, and as Steven stated in a PM to me, within similar/matched rhythm/intensity as the others.

All was over and done with, and I was laying face down for a couple of minutes, just basking in/finishing up my subspace, and would soon rise from the table, when out of the blue, the other fellow (a friend of a spanking friend whom I only met an hour before) came out of nowhere and laid a hit on my ass with that doubled thick belt that would have woke the bloody dead. It was completely out of balance, rhythm, severity and degree in comparison to what had gone one before it.

The fact was that just an hour earlier, when I had met said interloping fellow, I clearly, explicitly explained (several times) my inability to tolerate more than moderate pain, which I learned could trigger disassociation/shock in me, which I'd recently learned to temper by immediately having sensual, soothing touch replace the pain touch, and requiring tenderness and gentle talk, while I brought my owning breathing and shock under control coupled by mentally stabilizing and talking myself into the present. I clearly warned him about my tendency to go to ground if it was too painful, and that's exactly what happened...he went beyond the pale, and I went deep to ground.

The thing that irks me most was, instead of taking responsibility for what he had done, by clearly being careless, thoughtless and crossing a line that had been previously set, his reaction was not to apologize or own what he did or comfort me, but merely repeatedly state he had not hit me that hard, when in fact he had. How do you trust someone who isn't humble or human enough to own what they create? You don't!

I was lucky I had Steven and the host there to attend to me. I am lucky to have Steven now, to help me understand exactly what happend, and how to navigate. I am a bit of a raw nerve these days, and do not know whether I will or will not personally confront the culprit now, or wait until a later date, or never. It's my experience, and it's my lesson to learn from.

I would be eternally grateful, and would welcome, all responses and suggestions kind, supportive and instructive, but do not find helpful "You should have done this," or "The new spanker-friend should have done that." That only leaves me feeling shameful and guilt ridden. I will, one day soon, have a conversation with my new spanker friend, advising how what the culprit did was inappropriate, and he will learn, just like the rest of us did. I am new to this, and am learning as I go.

< Message edited by Duskypearls -- 8/21/2012 3:57:55 PM >

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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 4:07:11 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

I would be eternally grateful, and would welcome, all responses and suggestions kind, supportive and instructive, but not find helpful "You should have done this," or "The new spanker-friend should have done that." That only leaves me feeling shameful and guilt ridden. I will, one day soon, have a conversation with my new spanker friend, advising how what the culprit did was inappropriate, and he will learn, just like the rest of us did. I am new to this, and am learning as I go.


Well, you pretty much did everything you should have. You went above and beyond by negotiating with him, because you had no expectation of playing with him. As a bottom, you really aren't responsible for more than making prospective tops aware of issues, which you did. Under the party's protocol, there would not have been an issue if he entered the scene and continued it in the same vein as before. The issue was that he broke the rhythm. I personally believe that you would have been okay with the intensity had it been built up to properly, just not as a shock.

Your new spanker friend really couldn't have been expected to do much. He was new and was being actively instructed at the time.

I'm going to propose to the hostess of Scarlet Moons that there be two instructional courses, one for tops and one for bottoms. The one for tops will emphasize how to handle certain implements such as canes, and the one for bottoms will basically say it's okay to say no and to safeword, and vital to negotiate with new partners.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Duskypearls)
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RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 4:13:45 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

I would be eternally grateful, and would welcome, all responses and suggestions kind, supportive and instructive, but not find helpful "You should have done this," or "The new spanker-friend should have done that." That only leaves me feeling shameful and guilt ridden. I will, one day soon, have a conversation with my new spanker friend, advising how what the culprit did was inappropriate, and he will learn, just like the rest of us did. I am new to this, and am learning as I go.


Well, you pretty much did everything you should have. You went above and beyond by negotiating with him, because you had no expectation of playing with him. As a bottom, you really aren't responsible for more than making prospective tops aware of issues, which you did. Under the party's protocol, there would not have been an issue if he entered the scene and continued it in the same vein as before. The issue was that he broke the rhythm. I personally believe that you would have been okay with the intensity had it been built up to properly, just not as a shock.

Your new spanker friend really couldn't have been expected to do much. He was new and was being actively instructed at the time.

I'm going to propose to the hostess of Scarlet Moons that there be two instructional courses, one for tops and one for bottoms. The one for tops will emphasize how to handle certain implements such as canes, and the one for bottoms will basically say it's okay to say no and to safeword, and vital to negotiate with new partners.


Thank you, Steven. As always, you are the voice of reason, diplomacy, sanity and compassion. You are a treasure. That's why I nominated you CO BDSM Ambassador!

< Message edited by Duskypearls -- 8/21/2012 4:15:01 PM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: When things go south. - 8/21/2012 7:45:20 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
Imo, this type of party was just a disaster waiting to happen. I would say if you are vulnerable to things that may come up in playing, you should choose another kind of play party or play privately next time. In the situation provided however, unless you all know each other intimately over a long period of time, then someone eventually going to touch you in a way you don't like.


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(in reply to Duskypearls)
Profile   Post #: 40
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