This just breaks my heart... (Full Version)

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kitkat105 -> This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 3:36:57 PM)

I suspect there will be quite a few people who are against euthanasia down in this sub forum, but I honestly do believe it has a time and a place.

This man recently lost his battle in Britain to have to right to choose his own death. I think he ended up dying from a broken heart.. even having his own legal system not see that having the choice to end it is an important one and not a decision anyone would make lightly.

May he rest in peace. [X(]




Politesub53 -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 5:11:34 PM)

I am in two minds over this. Mr Nicklinson actually died from Pneumonia after refusing food since last week.

The problem with a law allowing assisted suicide is this. At what point does it become acceptable, in general terms. Some people in the same position would prefer to live, others not.

From the 1300s until 1961 suicide itself was illegal. If you survived you would face court and even end up in jail. The 1961 Suicide Act doesnt make suicide itself illegal but it does make aiding it illegal. This is to prevent relatives from committing murder and claiming the sick relative wished to die. Therefore the law itself was introduced to safeguard the ill, first and foremost.

My own view is there should be some way one can ask and get blessing from the courts and be allokwed to die, but safeguards must be kept in place.

I hope this explaination of our law helps.




MasterG2kTR -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:10:02 PM)

I wrote two similar but different papers for school on the subject of euthanasia or as I titled it "Death with Dignity". During my research for the papers I came across Tony Nicklinson's story. His tale was clearly one of the more compelling reasons to allow individuals to make such a choice for themselves. He was sound of mind, logical, and quite well considered in his desire to end his own life with the help of the medical community. I'm glad to hear that he is finally at peace. May the afterlife be everything that the here and now was not for him.




kalikshama -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:19:58 PM)

My Mom's been making me crazy lately with her work on her will, health care proxy, and cemetery plots. My brother thinks it's morbid; I think it's responsible (but I don't want to think about it).

If it were my decision, I would instruct the doctors to take the heroic measures to keep her alive, so I'm glad she has made her wishes clear that she chooses otherwise now while she is of sound mind to make this decision.

My ex's very sick 80 plus year old father died after stopping eating. He was ready to go and choose not to struggle anymore.




PeonForHer -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:39:28 PM)

It's going to take some responsibility, guts and depth of thought and feeling amongst our politicians here actually to engage with the issue of euthanasia, Kitkat. I, for one, am really fed up of seeing poor sods like this bloke in that position. It's not acceptable.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:42:28 PM)

I miss Dr Kevorkian.




Baroana -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:48:02 PM)

Can you imagine how that would go over in the enlightened U.S.? I can see the Fox News headline now: "Today assisted suicide, tomorrow death panels."




erieangel -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 6:49:57 PM)

My mother had a living will. When pancreatic cancer metastasized to her breasts and lungs, the doctors did what they could to make her comfortable, even scrapping her lungs so that she could breath more easily. She never did wake up from that surgery. For two days, she laid in the hospital, unresponsive, needles and wires come out of her arms, mouth, nose. We moved her to a nursing home, took her off everything except oxygen, even removed the IV. She lived for a week. She passed with her 4 children and three of her 9 grand children at her bedside.




Real0ne -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 7:00:55 PM)

I hate the subject.
Its a private matter.
However the "state" has a vested interest in you.
In other words they dont necessarily own but they certain control.
Does not matter what you think.
Same in all common law jurisdictions.
~UKofA




Aswad -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 8:33:37 PM)

I was there when my mother woke from her brief coma and reaffirmed her decision to cease life support.

I'm glad she got to see the people that love her, and that we weren't in the position of having to state the decision relayed to us without having her awake to be clear that she hadn't changed her mind. At the same time, it obviously also tears at my heart that she had to experience the additional suffering of returning to a lucid state to face death, rather than simply not waking up again. From a strictly egoistical point of view, I would of course want to still have her around, as any child would want. But for her own sake, I'm glad she had some choice in the matter of when and how, that she could die as herself, and didn't have to suffer further.

She had progressed to multiple organ failure from the sepsis, and the leukemia had progressed to the point where the pressure of the dividing cells in her marrow was cracking her skeleton open. For her to have a chance to live, heroic measures would have to be undertaken, with intensive antibiotics, complete bone marrow eradication, organ transplants, extensive surgery and so forth. In any real sense, on the off chance that she did survive in a physical sense, she would not have survived as the person she was. And to boot, she would have had to live with dialysis and go off the medications for depression, general anxiety and panic anxiety.

It was difficult to sit with her from when the machines were turned off until, at 2:40pm on 29/9-08, they pronounced her dead.

But I'm glad she didn't have to endure even more and- crucially- that she had a choice.

There are several complications with extending the current options to include euthanasia, but they are tractable problems. What I do not trust, however, is that politicians and legislators will do a good job of it, or that hospital managements will adequately put the patients' concerns ahead of their own, or that doctors are going to universally adhere to the safeguards that necessarily must be in place to prevent this beneficial and merciful arrangement from changing into a vehicle for murder. No number of true mercy killings can adequately make up for even a single murder. And one must also be wary of utilitarianism. Until such time as we have a system that is ready to act with capability and maturity, it is hard to conceive of a scenario where an adequate solution is put into place.

Consider that it is seen as radical that Mexico used an improvement centric methodology to clean up its health care sector (!).

What that translates into, is as simple as deploying two or more versions of a solution, evaluating them to determine which worked best, doing more of what worked and less of what didn't, and then repeating this process across all the variables in several iterations. A process that should be familiar to anyone that ever did cooking without a recipe: you try your educated guesses, see what works and what doesn't, then adjust it until you're happy with the results. In a field with objective metrics of success, this should be the obvious method, and the first thing to be tried. Instead, it seems there isn't a single government (well, except Finland) that does it with any consistency. The preferred "methodology" worldwide remains to pull an idea out of one's ass, disregard prior work and facts, then declare it a success without looking back.

That standard is inadequate to any task, and most certainly inadequate to this task.

Heck, most politicians and beurocrats have never read Parkinson's Law: The Pursuit of Progress, which should (for the time being) constitute sufficient grounds to ban someone from holding any office that involves deliverables, management, personell or politics until such time as they can restate the contents in three different and equivalent wordings after a literal recitation. The rest of the offices can then be cut, seeing as they will be back in short order anyway (beurocracies grow by a fixed rate, regardless of the amount of work to be done at any given point, if there even is any to do).

I want people to own themselves, legally speaking, and I'm not certain we can get that at present.

Yet another stopgap measure to fix one thing in the patchwork won't improve things long term.

The goal doesn't seem very controversial, but good intentions pave new roads every day.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





cloudboy -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/22/2012 8:39:16 PM)

That sounds like a tough way to lose you mom, Aswad. That can't be an easy memory to carry around.




Aswad -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/23/2012 3:18:40 PM)

Could be better, could be worse.

It was more of a preface, though, while the actual point was in the difficulties involved in making a decent option available.

IWYW,
— Awsad




kitkat105 -> RE: This just breaks my heart... (8/23/2012 4:21:33 PM)

On an interesting note, Dr Nitschke an Australian euthanasia advocate is proposing to Fiji to open a clinic like the one in Switzerland.

Read here.




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