RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be.

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Rule -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 6:15:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Yes Rule, foreskins make all the difference in the world..... Quite. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Did they change your meds again? Good of you to remind me. These days I am somewhat lax in taking my vitamin C tablets. I will add a multivitamin tablet as well.

Rule -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 6:22:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Just circumcise the two million odd American males* currently incarcerated and they'll all be cured of all their anti-social tendencies. They'll march out the prison gates, heads held high, and live lives of impeccable propriety for ever after. (Any resemblance to a fairy tale is purely coincidental.) You are both weird and wrong. Circumcision will result in exponentially increasing frequencies of people without a conscience in fuure generations - and hence in more crime. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Now why hasn't any one else thought of that? They either lack the education or they are merely ordinary people. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There has to be a Nobel Prize in there somewhere for CM's very own Rule. Yay! Go Rule! Hm. I agree. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Go the magic snip! You are still weird and wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle * Somehow I am unable to see this initiative having the same success with female prisoners. I'm probably missing something - I'm not privy to all the details. Indeed, you are missing something and indeed you are not privy.

Phoenixpower -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 6:27:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nephandi Greetings quote: Thats a shame (my opinion) cause over here when I worked in the writing department from the police, moons ago, I typed protocols from the prison in that area and wrote protocols about horrendous abuse stuff from within that prison, where the officer explained to me, that even in prison the criminals have a hierarchy...so the ones who sit due to murder as well as crime towards kids and women are on the bottom level of it and also get treated as such from other prisoners....and actually...after some stuff I had to write at that time I consider way worse, having potentially to endure that over decades, than to end up with the death penalty... Compared to that he wouldn't have it too bad if the chances are slim for him to get harmed in there...though, on the other hand being isolated for ages might be awful, too... I do not think this is a shame (providing I understood you correctly in that you think it is a shame we do not have the same pecking order in Norway, not to the same extent at least and that prisoners abusing one another is rare) in Norway the punishment is the removal of freedom, the point is not to make a prisoner suffer as much as possible in jail. If a prisoner is beaten by other prisoners the guards will stop it, prison rape is rate and is taken seriously when it happens. If we are to silently condone prison beatings, rapes and murders then we might as well bring back public floggings and other forms of torture as punishment. Imprisonment is the punishment of taking away a person's right to freedom, and that is all it is, and no matter what they have done they should be treated as human beings in prison for to do otherwise not only makes the prisoner more dangerous as then hate and resentment grows, but is also dishonors the prison system that mistreat the prisoners. I wish you well. I see your point Nephandi and admire your country for that view on the law. Over here it is being dealt with, too, when prisoners manage to report such crime being done to them to the police (though many also avoid reporting it, out of fear, that it will get worse if they dare to report it). However on a personal level I really don't care when some of them have to swallow their own medicine within the packing order of the prisons over here, considering what they did to get there in the first place...after all, they didn't care either how their victims also at times suffer the rest of their lives for the crime they had to cope with...

Rule -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 6:52:19 AM)
I think it is high time for Norwegians to stop bothering them whales and to start harpooning barbarians instead. Conquer the barbarian peoples, Vikings! Let's begin with those from the USA.

DomKen -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 7:09:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nephandi As I walked though the empty halls of this prison that soon would house rapists and murderers I found myself thinking I will never do crime. I was not scared by the existence of cruel guards or prison rape or cold stone walls and to little food, no the environment was pleasant, relaxing and inviting. I was scared by the idea of not being allowed to just run down to the local shop and get a chocolate, not being allowed to eat when I wanted, not being allowed to decide that I could not sleep and go for a walk in the middle of the night, all the things we take for granted. Our prison system works because that is what most Norwegians think, we do not think oh we have curtains and a kiosk so it is okey to be in jail then, we think this is a cage, a pleasantly painted cage, but still a cage. In fact I would rather be whipped in town square then spend ten years in even a Nowegian prison, for even if prisoners are treated like human beings and are given some kindnesses they are still in a cage, they loose their freedom, and the loss of freedom is a pretty bad punishment in and off itself, there is no need to make it worse. Eloquently stated and I fervently hope for the day when similiar sentiment reforms the prisons here.

nephandi -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 8:17:06 AM)
Greetings quote: You do have a point if a little ridiculous…I’ll let you compare the likes of Ghandi and Jesus to drug dealers and murderers…I’ll stick to the real world. kdsub you did not say you have no sympathy for drug dealers, you said criminals and both Ghandi and Jesus where criminals in their societies, so where Spartacus who lead the slave revolt in Rome, so where the Saudi Arabian woman who just got sentenced to public whipping for driving a car a few months back, all criminal. That is the real world. Or let us take a few examples from your USA shall we. A homeless woman got arrested for claiming to be living in a good part of town so her son could be enrolled in a good school, she is a criminal, several people have been been arrested for peaceful protests in the Occupy movement, they are criminals, quite a few normal, middle class people who have fallen on hard time and is unable to pay their bills have been arrested and they to are criminals. To make a blanket statement that you have no sympathy with criminals means you either have rose colored glasses and think the only people who ever end up in jail are drug dealers, rapists or murderers, or you really need to sit down and think hard about whatever or not anyone who breaks any law and by that is a criminal really are deserving of anything they get, or perhaps if a some of them actually do deserve a little compassion. I wish you well.

nephandi -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 8:28:39 AM)
Greetings quote: I see your point Nephandi and admire your country for that view on the law. Over here it is being dealt with, too, when prisoners manage to report such crime being done to them to the police (though many also avoid reporting it, out of fear, that it will get worse if they dare to report it). However on a personal level I really don't care when some of them have to swallow their own medicine within the packing order of the prisons over here, considering what they did to get there in the first place...after all, they didn't care either how their victims also at times suffer the rest of their lives for the crime they had to cope with... I am not an expert on USA but from all I have read prison rape and abuse is very rarely dealt with unless a particular case reaches the news and put some politician in a bad light. The percentage of prisoners, including child prisoners, who are raped in prison are staggering and beatings and other forms of abuse is even more common. Here is the rub, your government know it is happening, it should not just sit and wait for a situation to be reported it should take steps to end the problem they know is happening reports o no. It is like this, and the example is silly I know but bare with me. When I was in school the teachers choose to turn a blind eye to bullying so the principle could stand and say there is no bullying in our school. Sure the very few times when they had proof handed to them they did something, but other times they just ignored it, even if they knew it was happening and by that they condoned it. You do not need to know that prisoner Smith is being raped to do something, if one know the situation is there and you have the statistic then one should act on that knowledge. Now you say you do not care if a prisoner get raped, first off all do that mean you would be in favor of, like Aswad say, to sentence people to rape? Because condoning the American prison system the way it is, that is doing just that just in a more roundabout way. The question is not what these prisoners deserve or not, the question is how do one as a civilized nation want to conduct oneself, do one want to condone rape or not? The second problem is that rape do not only happen to the worst criminals, it also happens to those who have only taken a few bad choices. Young boys who have for example gotten a few years for non violent drug offenses who come out reporting of being beaten by the guards and raped by other prisoners, do you care if a 18 year old who just liked to smoke a bit of pot now and again get raped in prison? I wish you well

Aswad -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 8:41:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Stop circumcision. Within six or ten generations you will have bred a population that is as civilized as the Norwegian. Just cause I'm feeling nice and gentle today... There is active debate about banning circumcision in Norway now. That is to say, we've already decided that it has to be done in a hospital, and we're debating whether it can legally happen before one is 18 years old. Of course, this isn't going down well with the jews, but nobody really cares about that. We know they will either adapt or show themselves incapable of living in a society which respects men and women equally. The Somali etc. made the same arguments back when we banned circumcision of girls, and now they're exporting the idea that it's not necessary back to their relatives in Somalia, rather than packing their bags to go back to starving in a third world country. Go figure. Germany already did decide to ban it, as a matter of human rights for the children, and I don't see anyone rushing to leave. See? We've got something for everyone. Even you. [;)] IWYW, — Aswad.

MrBlue76 -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 8:41:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower I see your point Nephandi and admire your country for that view on the law. Over here it is being dealt with, too, when prisoners manage to report such crime being done to them to the police (though many also avoid reporting it, out of fear, that it will get worse if they dare to report it). However on a personal level I really don't care when some of them have to swallow their own medicine within the packing order of the prisons over here, considering what they did to get there in the first place...after all, they didn't care either how their victims also at times suffer the rest of their lives for the crime they had to cope with... This, about prisoners swallowing their own medicine, is more a myth than any other thing. The things that target you as a potential victim or prison rape are: being a newbie, being very young, being phisically weak, being somehow effeminate, or effeminate looking. Bring a 6 feet serial rapist and killer, with some good friends inside to a prison and you won't see him getting raped. The skinny 19 year old small time pot dealer... oh well, that's different. By the way, Aswad, your posts in this thread have been a pleasure to read :)

Aswad -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 8:51:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You do have a point if a little ridiculous…I’ll let you compare the likes of Ghandi and Jesus to drug dealers and murderers…I’ll stick to the real world. I compared apples to apples, so as to illustrate that *you* were comparing apples to oranges. Like me, you probably approve of Ghandi's crimes against the British Crown. It's not actually criminals as a group that you have a problem with. It's the problems they cause, for which I have a solution. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 9:17:36 AM)
Hey, honey. If being raped is supposed to be part of the sentence, then let it be carried out by a licenced rapist. I think the very term illustrates how absurd the notion is, but let's play with it for a moment. A licenced rapist would be like an executioner. Some would think it's great fun, such as Ilse Koch of the Buchenwald prison. Others would need a bit of Viagra to do their job. Come to think of it, with so many prisoners, one would need Vagra anyway. Of course, the general population, including rape victims, would pay taxes that would cover the wages of licenced rapists, and have no choice in that matter, just like anything else funded with taxes. If there were too few rapists on hand (now there's an interesting concept: too few rapists), one would just have to find a way to incentivize people to do the job. One might get the real hardened criminals to help out in return for time off for this good behavior. People could watch the spectacle. Or it could be like executions, done in a designated area without the public present, and the locals could sell T-shirts and memorabilia. Prostitution would still be illegal, of course, completing the crazy. I wonder how many times one should be raped for being one? I think it would dramatically improve the quality of the American people... [8\|] Particularly once people realize rape is the penalty for being poor, look to the filthy rich that won't even pay their rape tax, and decide it's time to get organized. Like the Pashtun did in Afghanistan. Those took out the Soviets, then the twin towers (or so the party line goes) and then the US military presence (for practical purposes), tearing down the US economy in the process. And I find myself wondering what the poor could do when they're already in the country. If you count all poor, they would be a majority of the population. If you stick to the ones in the prisons, they would be a percent of the population. Not a handful, like on 9/11. The situation in US prisons is a time bomb waiting to go off, not "just" a stain on the human soul. I guess the Romans got it right: væ victis. IWYW, — Aswad.

mnottertail -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 9:20:05 AM)
Somewhere along the way we lost our noblisse oblige and the will to demonstrate a lese majiste towards many things that were just not done before we became ugly Americans.

kdsub -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 11:14:58 AM)
I understood the point nephandi I just find it hard to get my mind around how we start out talking about a man who brutally murders 77 people and end up talking about Gandhi and Jesus along with Breivik. Gandhi and Jesus were not criminals to many yet this murderer is a criminal to all… there is a difference. The justice system aside am I the only one that sees how ridiculous mouthing the names of these three men in the same thread is? As I started this thread I will end my participation with the same conclusion I started with… You Norwegians seem to be a more gentle forgiving people than mine. I have always believed in the basic goodness of humans. But…I have come to the conclusion that a persons society, no matter how well intentioned, often makes it hard to understand the thinking of another. I personally am a generous, compassionate, charitable and sometimes stubborn person that has a hard time turning the other cheek and forgiving evil. Although I understand and even admire Norway’s justice system I find it hard to agree with it in this case. I thank all for the great discussion and exchange of ideas. Maybe some of them will sink into my hard head Butch

kdsub -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 11:18:02 AM)
quote: we became ugly Americans. lol.... Remember we mostly started out as Ugly Europeans...we are them.

Musicmystery -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 11:23:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule What do you - a lay person - know about it? Let me guess: nothing. [8\|] [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] I'm pretty sure that he at least gets that every issue isn't about circumcision.

nephandi -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 1:13:53 PM)
Greetings quote: I understood the point nephandi I just find it hard to get my mind around how we start out talking about a man who brutally murders 77 people and end up talking about Gandhi and Jesus along with Breivik. Gandhi and Jesus were not criminals to many yet this murderer is a criminal to all… there is a difference. This is a discussion that have strayed from discussing the punishment ABB got and is now revolving around the American vs the Norwegian philosophy for dealing with crime. This is less of a jump than many online debates have taken which might start out discussing cupcake recepies and end up discussing how much rubber you have to inject in a human eyeball before you can use it as a ping pong ball. Off course no one is claiming ABB and Gandhi have anything in common, that was a comment on the creater debate on how to deal with crime and criminals in general. quote: As I started this thread I will end my participation with the same conclusion I started with… You Norwegians seem to be a more gentle forgiving people than mine. I have always believed in the basic goodness of humans. But…I have come to the conclusion that a persons society, no matter how well intentioned, often makes it hard to understand the thinking of another. I personally am a generous, compassionate, charitable and sometimes stubborn person that has a hard time turning the other cheek and forgiving evil. Although I understand and even admire Norway’s justice system I find it hard to agree with it in this case. Thank you for your kind ways. Who would have thought that the descendants of Vikings would shock the whole world with how mild our judicial system is. :P I to have a problem with forgiving, and I would go so far as to say that while I do think of myself as kind I am both aggressive and territorial, if someone harmed one of my loved ones I would want to hang them up by the eyelids and force them to blink and that is just for starters. However I think that the judicial system is not there to cater to an individual's desire for revenge. The wish for vengeance is a natural human response, but the judicial system have to in my opinion focus on how to prevent crime and protect society and not how to get revenge. quote: I thank all for the great discussion and exchange of ideas. Maybe some of them will sink into my hard head Yes thank you for the debate, and there is nothing wrong with some healthy disagreement, the best debates are with the people that do not share my viewpoints, that is how I get my opinions challenged and how I grow and learn. I wish you well

nephandi -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 1:24:40 PM)
Greetings my love quote: If being raped is supposed to be part of the sentence, then let it be carried out by a licenced rapist. I think the very term illustrates how absurd the notion is, but let's play with it for a moment. A licenced rapist would be like an executioner. Some would think it's great fun, such as Ilse Koch of the Buchenwald prison. Others would need a bit of Viagra to do their job. Come to think of it, with so many prisoners, one would need Vagra anyway. Of course, the general population, including rape victims, would pay taxes that would cover the wages of licenced rapists, and have no choice in that matter, just like anything else funded with taxes. If there were too few rapists on hand (now there's an interesting concept: too few rapists), one would just have to find a way to incentivize people to do the job. One might get the real hardened criminals to help out in return for time off for this good behavior. People could watch the spectacle. Or it could be like executions, done in a designated area without the public present, and the locals could sell T-shirts and memorabilia. I know this is an unappropriate comment given the seriousness of the debate but that just gave me the desire to open a text document ans start writing a kinky novella. :P As a serious comment though as absurd as the above is, this is exactly what turning a blind eye to prison rape as a phenomena is. If a judicial system know rape is a likely outcome from sending someone to jail then they are in effect sentencing people to rape, they are just doing it in a way they can wash their hands of later, in actuality a state sanctioned rapist that carried out rape sentences would be both cleaner and more honest than the system you will find in many American prisons today. I guess this to is a part of how Norwegians look at thing, that we, or at least that our judicial system acknowledges that if you send someone a place you know something bad is going to happen to them, then you are just as responsible for that happening to them as if you did the bad things to them yourself. That is why Norway do not extradite prisoners to countries that practice capital punishment, for while we might not then execute the prisoners ourselves, by giving them up knowing execution is a likely outcome we have sent them to die just as much as if we had called in an executioner ourselves. Be Well

GreedyTop -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 2:19:47 PM)
* adores Aswad and Nephandi* Thank you both for a 'feet on the ground' perspective on the NOrwegian justice system! Nephandi, I'd love to read that novella ;)

Phoenixpower -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 2:31:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBlue76 quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower I see your point Nephandi and admire your country for that view on the law. Over here it is being dealt with, too, when prisoners manage to report such crime being done to them to the police (though many also avoid reporting it, out of fear, that it will get worse if they dare to report it). However on a personal level I really don't care when some of them have to swallow their own medicine within the packing order of the prisons over here, considering what they did to get there in the first place...after all, they didn't care either how their victims also at times suffer the rest of their lives for the crime they had to cope with... This, about prisoners swallowing their own medicine, is more a myth than any other thing. The things that target you as a potential victim or prison rape are: being a newbie, being very young, being phisically weak, being somehow effeminate, or effeminate looking. Bring a 6 feet serial rapist and killer, with some good friends inside to a prison and you won't see him getting raped. The skinny 19 year old small time pot dealer... oh well, that's different. By the way, Aswad, your posts in this thread have been a pleasure to read :) Swallowing the own medicine doesn't mean to get exact what they did....but at least I know it is far from a myth and way more complex than to believe the target would just be being a newbie, being young blablabla... quite frankly, some folks who are in there especially for the long run... don't give a shit if a person is a newby or not....they have nothing to lose and some of them at least make the "best of their situation in their view"....quite frankly....you can be as big and strong as you like...it won't help you much when one of them is targetting you and has his helpers in there.... I am sorry but I wrote a fair amount of stuff from in there and visited work wise a few prisons and know enough about it to have my view point set....to know its real and not your desired fiction...but I am sure you know many prisoners and prisons yourself to have your view[:)] Though kudos to the Norwegians when they handle it that way...

Musicmystery -> RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. (8/25/2012 2:56:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop * adores Aswad and Nephandi* Thank you both for a 'feet on the ground' perspective on the NOrwegian justice system! Nephandi, I'd love to read that novella ;) I am SO looking forward to visiting Norway next summer and meeting you!

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