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New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:18:44 AM

Politesub53

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I am not knocking the NYPD here, as I realise they were in a difficult situation. I am wondering though what lessons can be learned, to avoid a repeat of nine civillians being hit by bullets, or fragments of bullets, fired by the police. It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:34:55 AM

Yachtie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am not knocking the NYPD here...I am wondering though what lessons can be learned

Most cops do not put in a lot of range time. Also there is a protection (and mindset) afforded by the badge while in the performance of their official duties. These two where combined can make for a nasty situation.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:37:50 AM

Politesub53

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Thanks for the info about range time. That makes a lot of sense.

Thankfully it seems none of those civillians hit have serious injuries.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:45:07 AM

GreedyTop

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Another thing to consider is that, given the fact that dude was armed, had already killed one person, and was apparently pulling a gun in police presence, there was not time to clear the area (as there would have been if it had been, say, a hostage situation or such).

From the video I did see, a lot of civilians seemed to be actively following the police, and quite a few appeared absolutely clueless as to what was actually happening (therefore, not rapidly leaving the area).

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:05:24 AM

Politesub53

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All fair points Greedy. Maybe there was no time to get a police marksman on the scene, or as you say get the area cleared.

Either way it seems at the very least a cock up of monumental proportions. I can remember an instance on the London Underground when the police were trying to close a very busy station during an IRA bomb threat. Some of the crowd were actually pushing past police and diving under police tape, to reach the trains. Although there had been so many threats tha Londoners became blase to the whole notion of bombs at stations.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:15:34 AM

GreedyTop

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I think that we, as Americans, despite 9/11 have largely become complacent again. I guess kinda like those folks diving for the trains.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:16:12 AM

Yachtie

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fr

These are the good shooters. IPSC. Some cops might participate, but not enough. It's international.

A local indoor range would have a shoot on weekends. Some of the participants were damn good.

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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:21:47 AM

servantforuse

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I also would not fault the NYPD. If someone has already killed one person and is still armed, what good would a tazor do ?

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:27:11 AM

Rule

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How about giving the police paintball guns instead of firearms?

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:31:57 AM

Thaz

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Reacting to a 'as it happens' shooting in crowded streets would be a nightmare.

More range time might have helped though. Various Law Enforcement agencies have very low range requirements and limit the amount of ammo avilable for practise both for ammo cost and wear on sidearms. A crying shame.

This IPSC shooters Yachtie mention no doubt pay for additional ammo out of their own pockets. (And yes I've spent time on the same ranges and IPSC comps as Brit Firearms Police)

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:41:02 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am not knocking the NYPD here, as I realise they were in a difficult situation. I am wondering though what lessons can be learned, to avoid a repeat of nine civillians being hit by bullets, or fragments of bullets, fired by the police. It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492

I'll go right ahead and knock NYPD.

You're safer when they're not around. This, of course, doesn't come as a surprise to any REAL New Yorkers.

The lesson-learned here is "EVERY DOLLAR SPEND FIGHTING TERRORISTS IS WASTED". If NYPD can't keep New Yorkers safe from a SINGLE CRAZY GUNMAN, and instead end up hurting more people than the gunman does, how many people do you think they'll KILL when they're confronted with an act of terrorism?

Just like this, NYPD will kill more people than the terrorists dream of.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 6:53:33 AM

Real0ne

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if they cant hit a tin can thrown across their path at least 3 times in air pistol or rifle they have absolutely no business calling themselves a professional shooting in a public arena.

yeh it lined shitloads of gubafia agency pockets. they should tap into some of that cia drug money instead of the taxpayer

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 7:03:53 AM

Yachtie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

Various Law Enforcement agencies have very low range requirements and limit the amount of ammo avilable for practise both for ammo cost and wear on sidearms. A crying shame.

Wear on maintained firearms is very slow. A couple thousand rounds through a good semi is nothing.

It's interesting that civilians will spend their own money to become proficient at something. You'd think every cop would be involved in IPSC as they have supposed greater odds of actually needing the proficiency.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Thaz)

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 8:11:12 AM

OsideGirl

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Here's what I read:

The shooter was armed with a .45ACP with 7 bullets.

He shot his ex-boss 5 times. When the weapon was recovered there were two bullets in the weapon.

I'm torn on what to think of the New York police because with the crowded sidewalks in NYC, it can't be easy. But part of me also thinks that had this situation been engaged differently, it might have ended differently.

I do agree that a lot of police officers don't do anything more than what is required when it comes to practicing. They clearly didn't follow the four rules of gun safety.

Rule #4 - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 8:21:41 AM

DaddySatyr

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NYPD Accuracy

While I'm sure this won't be the final word, I think we can safely say that this information changes a few perceptions.

Cops aren't exactly marksmen, for the most part. In this state, in order to maintain their ability to carry, they need only shoot 70%

The shooter wasn't a "spree killer". It seems like his goal was to kill the guy that fired him and ...

commit "suicide by cop". It is something that some people choose to do, unfortunately and they give little thought to those around them (much like "regular" suicides).

The cops had lots of options, here, other than shooting also. They could have kept the guy under surveillance until they were in a more advantageous situation. Nothing is faster than a radio.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 8:30:32 AM

GreedyTop

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Yeah.. he's pulling a weapon on armed officers after he already killed someone. Yeah, let's just sit back and "surveille" him...

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 8:37:22 AM

DaddySatyr

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Yes, Greedy, because as the evidence shows, they also fucked up a few other lives; not just the shooter's.

I admit that hindsight is always perfect but, even as simple a thing as allowing him to walk around the corner to where his car was parked might have avoided injuries to innocent civillians.

Bullets aren't guided missiles. The person throwing them has to be very sure of their target or the potential for catastrophe is immense.

Tell me; now that we know the only person this guy actually shot was his former boss, do you think his intent was to shoot anyone else or is it as I said; he wanted to kill his boss and have the cops kill him, in return?

I think the evidence bears me out but, even if that wasn't his intent, the fact is the "score" is: "Shooter: 1 NYPD: 9"

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 8/26/2012 8:44:44 AM >

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 8:54:15 AM

igor2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

NYPD Accuracy

While I'm sure this won't be the final word, I think we can safely say that this information changes a few perceptions.

Cops aren't exactly marksmen, for the most part. In this state, in order to maintain their ability to carry, they need only shoot 70%

The shooter wasn't a "spree killer". The cops that were following him had no way of knowing this at the time. For all they knew he was walking down the sidewalk looking for his next victim or victims. It seems like his goal was to kill the guy that fired him and ...

commit "suicide by cop". Again, the cops had no way of knowing what was on the guys mind. Also, the guy had an extra clip of ammunition in his briefcase (found after the fact), which is something that would indicate he may not have been through with what he intended, and is hardly anything he would need if he intended "suicide by cop". It is something that some people choose to do, unfortunately and they give little thought to those around them (much like "regular" suicides).

The cops had lots of options, here, other than shooting also. They could have kept the guy under surveillance until they were in a more advantageous situation. Surveillance on a busy NYC sidewalk at 9:00 a.m. isn't necessarily an easy accomplishment, and who knows how far they would have had to follow him to find a "more advantageous situation"? And without knowing the man's motives how could they know he wouldn't just stop and start shooting into the passers-by at any given moment? How could the cops know he only had 2 rounds left in his gun, or how many more guns he may have had? And when the man turned and pointed a gun at them there really weren't many other options...stand there and be shot at, or return fire. Also, from what I understand, some of the rounds that hit the bystanders may have passed through the man's body before striking the victims...not necessarily just misses by the NYPD. Nothing is faster than a radio.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I'm not saying you don't have some good points, but with all the unknowns involved I think you are being a little unfair towards the NYPD officers that were involved.

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 9:01:30 AM

DaddySatyr

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I may have given the wrong impression.

The cops did make some poor choices but you'll notice I'm not calling for suspensions or firings or criminal prosecutions?

He pointed his gun at the cops. That's fact. Could they have dove for cover? I wasn't there. Could they have taken cover and "followed" him until a better, safer opportunity presented itself? Again, I wasn't there.

I did, however, grow up in NYC and I know the area around ESB pretty well. It is a madhouse of activity at just about any time of the day (and some nights). The fact that there are people everywhere is a pretty strong argument for my point that trying to manipulate the situation into your favor (less by-standers) is a fairly reasonable one.

I was not condemning the NYPD, I was just pointing out that initial reports had some very erroneous accusations and assumptions flying about.

I can guarantee you that those two cops are getting a "talking to" by one of their superiors about how they might have handled the situation differently.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 8/26/2012 9:03:28 AM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to igor2003)

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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 9:21:38 AM

GreedyTop

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Excellent points, Igor.

and Michael?? yeah, you totally gave such a wrong impression that it now sounds like you are pedaling backwards as fast as you can, IMO.

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