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RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/27/2012 11:08:02 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

But they don't free the rest of us, or the State, from an obligation to adequately help out those citizens in need of assistance.

What obligation is that, exactly?

I mean, I know why I do it, and I also know it makes perfect practical sense, but I would like to hear this obligation articulated.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

For mine, this obligation derives from the basic duties a State is required to perform in modern societies as part of the foundational 'social compact' between citizens and the State they authorise.

The State is obliged to provide a minimum standard of living health education and security for all its citizens.

This could also be argued on efficiency grounds - that the State is best positioned to be the most efficient provider of such services, if it is agreed that a certain minimum standard is desirable.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/27/2012 11:11:00 PM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 12:55:52 AM

erieangel

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quote:

Those who are hungry cold and homeless shouldn't have to rely on the caprices and most definitely not on the prejudices of those more fortunate in life for their survival.

While I don't disagree with you, I have hard time fully agreeing with you giving our political climate. Since the Clinton administration, we have had the social contract drastically altered and it continues to be so. Welfare was "reformed" and now poor people (mostly single mothers) who once received welfare checks are stuck in minimum wage jobs, were promised greater food stamp and medicaid benefits and a larger EITC. Now the republicans are arguing that nearly 50% of the population doesn't pay taxes, which is disingenuous but we do all know that they mean federal income taxes--most who don't pay FIT are too poor to have liability and the rest are megawealthy who manage to erase any liability away.

But the tax argument and who pays, who doesn't is gross. It tells us exactly what the republicans want to do. They want to lower taxes on the wealthy, who don't even need a tax cut. They also want to lower the EITC, cut benefits to food stamps and medicaid (along with most other programs that help the working poor many of whom are former welfare recipients who fell for the "plan").

As for charities. The last time I was food pantry I took a client. This was back when I was still allowed to give rides to clients which I am no longer to do because it doesn't "fall into program description of psych rehab". Anyway, I was having some financial problems at the time, so I asked them what their income guidelines were--this particular place doesn't have any. I was told they will give a bag of food to anybody in the county no matter what because everybody needs help at some point. So I signed up, got my bag of rice, pasta, cereal, canned veggies, peanut butter and a few other odds and ends a few months later made a donation to the agency. That particular agency also runs a homeless shelter for men and a soup kitchen which is open for lunch. Anybody who arrives for lunch before they actually start serving the food is forced to sit through a short 15 minute Christian service, but the doors are open until they are done serving.

I actually know guys who will sleep at this place, get up in the morning go to another church that serves breakfasts, wander the streets for a few hours until it is time to line up for lunch, wander some more until it is time to line up at a third agency for dinner and then go back to line up for a bed where they had started. I also know guys who have their own apartments, but never spend a dime on food, they simply spend their days "making the rounds". Not my idea of a life at all.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 82

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 3:17:35 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For mine, this obligation derives from the basic duties a State is required to perform in modern societies as part of the foundational 'social compact' between citizens and the State they authorise. The State is obliged to provide a minimum standard of living health education and security for all its citizens.

Leaving aside that I have not authorized any state at any point, this does not resemble any social compact I've seen any state or its citizens enter into, let alone actually uphold. As far as I can tell, insofar as there is an actual compact, it seems to primarily be tied to rule of law, financial management and military force. In short, trade, bondage and compartmentalization masquerading as protection. The zeitgeist in the west has an element of cooperation to it, but I'm not sure that's much more than something that becomes superimposed on the capitalist substrate that has been built, through the interwoven fabric of the media, the culture and the corporations, with all this increasingly supplanting the state.

That, incidentally, is about what you'd expect in terms of selection processes over a random, directionless background.

quote:

This could also be argued on efficiency grounds - that the State is best positioned to be the most efficient provider of such services, if it is agreed that a certain minimum standard is desirable.

Other way around. The state is very rarely best positioned to be the most efficient provider of such services, but the state can do a good job of collective bargaining and the like. Having some services provided through the state as a mediator is clearly far more efficient than the alternatives. Education, health care and so forth are services that are much cheaper and more efficient solutions in securing good conditions for businesses (and citizens), compared to leaving this out of the equation. Similarly, rehabilitation has a superior efficiency over punishment in the justice system, thus providing more favorable conditions at a lower net cost.

Again, this doesn't require crediting ourselves with anything to account for it. Mere random drift will select for it due to efficiency. I'm not even sure there is such a thing as government in the West anymore. Mediation seems more like it, and poorly done. There is no need for, nor much evidence of, the trappings we like to put on it- post hoc rationalized behavior writ large- to explain this. We might as well call it moderation, like that in a reactor. And as far as there is any government or social compact involved at all, it seems to be on one simple principle: you bend over and bite the pillow, while I take a ride. Arguably more agreeable between a couple of consenting adults than between a gang of hardened criminals and the effeminate new jaywalker in the cell block.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't have the good stuff, just that I don't see evidence that "good" as an assessment plays a part in the stuff we have, or that there is any recognized obligation, or ... well... you get the idea. I thought maybe there'd be an ethical reason for it to be an obligation.

Like you, I don't trust that our species will provide for its less successful members. I also don't know that it always should, as the math tends to be problematic on that point. But if we are to succeed as a species, I think we need to get to the point where we could trust each other to help when helping is the right choice. In that perspective, welfare is little more than a stopgap. A more efficient way for the wheels to keep turning, and to retain the rusty cogs in a spare parts bin, rather than them breaking inside the machine and causing it to grind to a halt.

Cynical, I guess, but I don't really think we've gotten very far these past couple thousand years, except materially. And we know our material wealth is built on an unsustainable foundation, so it can't carry us indefinitely. Rats and cockroaches are fine, but we can't justifiy our impact on the world around us without striving to be something more- or at least something different- than those two. And I'm not seeing that on a large scale. Bringing it back to the topic at hand, I don't see the church doing it anymore, either. To save the apologetics time: Some places do. Reasons. Excuses. Yadda. Blah. If we can't get back to making decent people, these churches might as well be harvested for the precious trace metals they contain.

~nm~

I see us taking credit for what can be accounted for without us, and it's not good enough.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 83

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 6:22:47 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Ah yes, let's take a 12-year-old news story about a single church and use it to slam a whole country--along with anyone who disagrees with you politically.

What a breath of intellectual fresh air you bring to our forums.

Yes let's pretend this is an isolated incident and ignore that nuns just got smacked down for the same reason.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 84

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 4:59:56 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Yes let's pretend this is an isolated incident and ignore that nuns just got smacked down for the same reason.

If you know of other incidents of churches closing down their food banks for dubious reasons, I'm open to hearing about them.

As for the nuns, I just plowed through the CDF's Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious and didn't see anything saying that the sisters were spending too much time on acts of charity. (I'm guessing that's what you mean by "the same reason.") But I don't always catch everything while reading on screen, so you're welcome to flag anything I missed.

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Post #: 85

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 7:54:09 PM

erieangel

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The nuns in the US got reprimanded by Rome and the bishops for spending too much time on charity and not enough time on stuff like anti-gay programs, etc.

It was a clear smack down which many of them have ignored.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 86

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 7:56:35 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Since they will still be collecting food for baskets, I'd say it is more a case of getting more selective in which segments of the poor population they are going to serve. Those who feel the good works of a private charity are an entitlement to show up and demand, are finding otherwise.

Remember also that Jesus taught that the poor would always be with us, and helping them was a good thing, but should not become the priority of the faith. (Mark 14:7 - paraphrased)

No danger of that happening

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Post #: 87

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 8:04:48 PM

erieangel

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quote:

working the loading dock and loading food into high dollar SUVs of those who were "poor".

I've been thinking about this statement all day. Have you ever considered that maybe those high dollar SUVs belonged to food pantries or volunteers of food pantries who went to the food bank to pick up supplies?

I used to go to the area Second Harvest Food Bank to get stock for a food pantry. The vehicle we used was a three year old conversion van that belonged to another volunteer. I ordered the food, picked up the order with 1-3 other people and we were the ones who loaded the van. We also unloaded when we arrived back at the food pantry. The van owner would then leave for his job as would whatever other help we'd had that day, leaving me to open boxes and stock the shelves on my own. I would also double check the invoice at this time, though I would have done at the food bank as well, to ensure we weren't charged for anything they didn't give us. Basically, Second Harvest pays $1 for 7 pounds of food and we paid about $3 for 7 pounds, though some foods cost us a little more, some a little less and some we actually got totally free.

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Post #: 88

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 8:09:52 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

....

Remember also that Jesus taught that the poor would always be with us, and helping them was a good thing, but should not become the priority of the faith. (Mark 14:7 - paraphrased)

It has been a LONG time since I've been to bible study but as I recall, that statement was to his disciples when they chastised the woman who used expensive oils to bathe the feet of Jesus. They admonished her, saying she should have used the money that oil cost, to feed the poor. Jesus was referring to his current situation telling them that they'd always have the poor to tend to, but he wouldn't always be there. It wasn't about NOT making the poor a priority, but rather about the kindness the woman had shown to him and how it had touched HIM personally.

Sorry. Not trying to be quarrelsome.

Not quarrelsome at all....I for one had forgotten,till you brought it here,the context of that quote.
Thanks.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 89

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/28/2012 9:29:19 PM

mcbride

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quote:

IceDemeter

Hey, thanks for pointing out that it's a 12 year old story (as a couple of others have done after you.)

And, notably, a simple search of their archives shows that it isn't an Ottawa Citizen story, so (a) it isn't clear where it comes from, and (b) it IS clear that someone lied in sourcing it to the Citizen.

It went around Facebook a year ago. Had it come from any reputable media outlet, you'd see various search hits, but the only returns are three blog posts over three days last year, including "The Friendly Atheist".

Which makes it incredibly crappy non-journalism. Luckily CBC filed a follow, as others have pointed out.

I hope those who use it to try to claim that the horribly misguided Charlotte Prossen represents more than her one church will consider volunteering at a Food Bank, even if it means working along people of faith.

(in reply to IceDemeter)

Post #: 90

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 2:26:37 AM

Charles6682

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What a disgrace.A church in Canada eliminates their food program because poor people actually showed up.So much for doing the right thing.Sounds like real Christians to me

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Post #: 91

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 5:52:23 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

The nuns in the US got reprimanded by Rome and the bishops for spending too much time on charity and not enough time on stuff like anti-gay programs, etc.

I've heard it described that way too, Erie, but reading the Vatican's actual words on the subject makes me think there's been some oversimplification of the CDF's position.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Post #: 92

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 8:56:58 AM

QueenRah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

working the loading dock and loading food into high dollar SUVs of those who were "poor".

I've been thinking about this statement all day. Have you ever considered that maybe those high dollar SUVs belonged to food pantries or volunteers of food pantries who went to the food bank to pick up supplies?

I volunteer at a local church food bank and I have seen clients drive up in those expensive SUVs and high-dollar trucks. I used to judge them, as well, until one woman, a new client, told me her story. She and her husband had lost their jobs months before. Unemployment insurance was going, they had been searching, in vain, for new, gainful employment and she was standing in line, for the first time in her life.

They couldn't get out from under the loan for their expensive truck and couldn't get anyone to take over the payments. So, they were stuck with a fancy-looking vehicle that enabled church after church to turn them down for any kind of assistance. I looked at my own attitude, from then on, and determined that those who stand in line for two hours don't need me to judge - they need to be fed.

Don't know about the rules of food distribution for Canadian churches; but, any establishment that receives goods from the local Food Bank is not permitted to require any client to endure religiousity. They are entitled to the food. Mind you, if they behave in a manner that is confrontational, they are told they don't have to stand in our line.

Granted, there are those who live to get a free ride. It ain't much of a ride, though. Those who live in the spirit of poverty will, likely, always remain poor, in mind, body and spirit.

QR

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Post #: 93

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 9:00:45 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Nobody is entitled to something from me. Nobody has a claim to what's mine. Nobody gets to numb me down that way.

I just got done with a huge fundraiser for a local homeless charity. I admit, I'm pretty new to this philanthropy thing and it still feels a lot like begging to ask people for their money with no "product" in return. But I absolutely agree that someone agrees to donate or they do not and they cannot be faulted for choosing not to. It is their money and their decision to make.

I also agree with the distinction between some random donation to United Way and actually making a conscious choice to get involved. That second thing is new to me and yes... it's very different and quite a bit more poignant.

I'm not going to let "deserve" get in the way.
In all the hundreds of hours I put in on that fundraiser it never once occurred to me to wonder about how "deserving" the people were. How could I possibly even care about that? They were in trouble... deep, deep trouble. If I saw a car drive off the road into a river and start filling with water I wouldn't be asking myself how deserving the family inside the car was of rescue. I'd be rescuing insofar as I was able. In the end, my choice isn't about them. It's about me and that really annoying guy in the mirror I have to deal with.

_____________________________

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officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 94

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 9:09:51 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
What obligation is that, exactly?

I could be wrong, but in my new adopted country of Canada I actually DO believe there is an obligation which comes under the heading of human rights and flows from whatever they call their constitution. I haven't done the research to track that down yet so take it with a grain of salt.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 95

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 9:21:28 AM

Charles6682

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I'm curious.I wonder what kind of cars the normal church members drive?

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 8/29/2012 9:29:36 AM >

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Post #: 96

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/29/2012 7:14:24 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I've heard it described that way too, Erie, but reading the Vatican's actual words on the subject makes me think there's been some oversimplification of the CDF's position.

Here's an article that directly quotes the Vatican's criticisms from your link:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-18/american-nuns-vatican/54396560/1

I found this part describing the very different motivations of nuns and bishops to be particularly relevant to this threads topic:

"Throughout church history, and in particular in the United States, women in religious communities who take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience have directed their work toward charitable and educational ministries — running schools, hospitals, orphanages and a range of social services that have become as much a hallmark of Catholicism as the moral doctrine that the bishops oversee.

Increasingly, however, the hierarchy in Rome and the U.S. is focusing on promoting doctrinal orthodoxy and curbing dissent.

Many women religious (as both sisters in active ministry and cloistered nuns are known) have viewed their ministry as primarily one of service, but some have openly disagreed with church leaders on a number of hot-button issues."

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RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/30/2012 4:04:39 PM

Silentrunner26

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We have a church in town that helps people every Thursday with food . The only problem I have with them is when a friend went to get help he was told you had to been in the church to get help . Well he went that Sunday . Never understood a word the Priest said because it was all in spanish . I know I am not all that smart having been raised in a public school but even I can see something is wrong .

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RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 8/30/2012 4:48:53 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I could be wrong, but in my new adopted country of Canada I actually DO believe there is an obligation which comes under the heading of human rights and flows from whatever they call their constitution. I haven't done the research to track that down yet so take it with a grain of salt.

A legal obligation, certainly, but is it a moral obligation?

As you say, the experience of getting personally involved is dramatically different, whether it is an everyday thing like putting the difference on the counter when the person ahead of you in line at the store is searching for that last coin, or something as profound as taking in a complete stranger to clothe and feed them when they have lost everything. Or, departing from the financial, matters ranging from helping a lady get her stroller off the bus, to reviving someone in an accident, comforting the grieving, or sitting with someone that is dying so they don't have to spend that time alone.

I don't know if I would consider it a moral obligation, but I do know that it pleases me to do it.

Heinlein, in a speech to some servicemen, related the tale of a stranger.

A tramp that died trying to free a woman's leg from the rail road tracks as the train came. The two of them had never met, and her husband was trying to help her also (as is arguably his obligation), yet he kept on trying until that train hit him, never leaving it to the husband, nor for a moment trying to save himself, let alone asking whether she was deserving of such an effort or the inevitable sacrifice involved in the largely futile attempt. Heinlein never knew his name, who he was or where he was from, only what this stranger did. That's probably the most important thing one can ever know about a man, and often the only thing one needs to.

The conclusion offered: «This is how a man dies. This is how a man lives!»

I would nuance it a bit, as I expect Heinlein did in the fullness of his own thoughts, but the sentiment speaks to me. The notion that the same woman would have been denied a meal if starving... well... I'm not sure I can properly articulate anything to say to that. On the bright side, some folk way back when either did articulate a response, or quote one, and its correct enunciation is for the most part with the mouth closed. This particular Word is one I think you have familiarized yourself with. When you're doing the charity thing, it's part of the refrain of that little tune the heart hums to itself.

Pretty catchy tune, too.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 99

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the ... - 9/1/2012 6:13:22 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Here's an article that directly quotes the Vatican's criticisms from your link:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-18/american-nuns-vatican/54396560/1

Sorry to be slow in responding. It was a long week at work.

Thanks for the USA Today article, which I hadn't seen. It was interesting, though it seems a little odd to root your post in a secondary source description of what the CDF said when the primary source was readily available. But maybe that's just the old history major in me.

Having looked at both the article and (once again) the CDF document, I honestly do think the USA Today writer is setting up a "poor, oppressed nuns versus evil, power-hungry bishops" narrative that reflects a modern, progressive, American, and sociological take on the situation and evidences no effort to understand the very different mindset underlying the CDF's viewpoint. The author's sympathies are clearly with the nuns. I can understand that (mine are too), but it takes a toll on his journalism.

The author doesn't, for instance, touch on the fact that the CDF began by setting forth the "context" (their word) in which they assessed the LCWR: "In founders and foundresses [of religious order] we see a constant and lively sense of the Church, which they manifest by their full participation in all aspects of the Church’s life, and in their ready obedience to the Bishops and especially to the Roman Pontiff. Against this background of love towards Holy Church ‘the pillar and bulwark of truth’ (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand...the full ecclesial communion which the Saints, founders and foundresses, have shared in diverse and often difficult times and circumstances." Whether we like it or not, the CDF sees American nuns (along with everyone else in the church) as part of a larger whole, whose good outweighs that of individuals or subsets of the church.

Part of that larger good, at least from the CDF's perspective, is that an institution claiming to be "the pillar and bulwark of truth" speak with a coherent voice. That, I think, is why the CDF focused on LCWR's and Network's public advocacy--which, let's be honest, they undertake as representatives of the Catholic faith. No one on Capitol Hill cares what Simone Campbell personally thinks about Obamacare. She gets a hearing because she represents a larger faith community (which also happens to be a big part of the electorate). Given that, it seems not unreasonable for the folks charged with maintaining the integrity and unity of that faith community to take an interest in whether its beliefs are represented authentically.

That, of course, raises the key question of who gets to define what "Catholic" means. Here, as I noted above, the USA Today author takes a sociological approach, talking of "a range of social services that have become as much a hallmark of Catholicism as the moral doctrine that the bishops oversee." That may be true in terms of how Americans think, but the Catholic Church has always been clear about the primacy of the Magisterium (its body of teachings) and the role of the pope and bishops in guarding it, as a sacred treasure, from generation to generation. That's a long-standing pillar of Catholicism--to which every nun alive presumably subscribed when she took vows.

A few stray thoughts before I wrap up this already-too-long post:

(a) It bears noting, I think, that the CDF never condemned nuns for doing works of charity and social justice. Indeed, the document includes fulsome praise from John Paul II. They also didn't condemn them for advocating for social justice (as popes and bishops have done too, for that matter). Rather they raised the concern that LCWR's advocacy was incomplete because it didn't address other issues as well.

(b) It's hard, I know, to work up sympathy for the Catholic hierarchy's opposition to abortion. But they honestly do think it's one of the great evils of our time, akin to slavery and genocide. So when the CDF criticizes the LCWR for being "silent on the right to life from conception to natural death," it sees that silence as a major act of moral malpractice.

(c) As someone who outgrew the Catholic Church and moved on, I must confess a certain impatience with liberal folks who stay and then whinge when church leaders reiterate what they've been teaching for 2,000 years. Catholicism has flaws aplenty, and I can eagerly discuss them all night. But they don't include lack of clarity. It's not Rome's fault if parishioners or even nuns are in denial about what their own church teaches.

Again, my sympathies are with the nuns, and I'd joyously welcome them into denominations (I waver between Episcopalianism and Unitarianism) where they'd be cherished for exactly who they are. But I do think fairness requires seeing the LWCR "smackdown" as far more complex than the "bully bishops" narrative making the rounds.

Jmho. Ymmv.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor

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